Question:

Steve wrote… The future is hybrid cars- doesn’t matter if they burn propane, CNG, gasoline, or corn oil. The only problem is, there are only 3 hybrid cars on the market at the moment, and I won’t own any of them because they’re Asian imports.

Three? Are you sure? According to the Department of Energy, there are only two hybird vehicles currently available to the general public: the Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius. Ford is supposedly looking at a hybrid Explorer, and there’s long been a rumor of Chrysler looking at a hybrid Durango. I’ll wait for those.

Actually, Ford’s soon-to-be released HEV is a modified version of the Escape light SUV; the Explorer would be too heavy to be practical as an HEV (note that both of the current HEVs, the Insight and the Prius, are much lighter than gas-engine vehicles of the same size). "Dodge is experimenting with a Durango that has a hybrid electric drive. Although it is close to being a production-ready vehicle, there are not plans yet to manufacture the Durango HEV. Such a vehicle would offer consumers appreciable performance improvements over its conventionally- powered counterparts. These include improvements in fuel economy and acceleration." (Source: http://www.ott.doe.gov/hev/concept.html) — Glenn Shaw Indianapolis, IN USA 1998 Plymouth Neon Highline Sedan E-mail? Please take out the garbage first….

Response:

I want to do something that will REALLY have an impact, something that will last longer than one day. I’m willing to do something really crazy. Are you as crazy as I am? Can we agree that the development of and transition to alternate energy sources is inevitable? Probably yes. Ever wonder why progress is so slow?

No, I *know* why the progress is slow. Look at the energy content of fuels in BTUs per pound. *NOTHING*, and I mean *nothing* comes anywhere close to fossil fuels. If the price of oil (and gasoline) remains low enough to be tolerable, it actually hinders the development of and transition to alternate fuels. The oil supply chain knows this. If the price of oil goes up too high, then it makes investment in alternate fuels worthwhile.

Or maybe "alternate fuels" just flat are NOT worthwhile, at least not at the current level of technical development. Our government subsidizes some of the most absurd endeavors. I suggest some of our tax money be spent to help us convert our cars to gas, and build the distribution network needed to reduce our dependency on oil.

There is (or at least WAS) a huge subsidy program here in Texas. The City of Austin bought a huge fleet of CNG vehicles. What an utter boondoggle- city busses that couldn’t keep schedule because if they ran out of fuel, they had to be TOWED back to the bus barn. They burned *millions* in tax dollars, and got a huge black eye by jumping to a technology that was many years away from being ready for prime-time. LNG (propane) is a different story. Folks have been converting to that since the early 70s- a neighbor on the next farm over had a propane-converted 454 GMC pickup back in 1973. The problem is refuelling. On a farm, everyone’s got a propane tank, a diesel tank, and a gasoline tank for the equipment anyway, but in your typical urban hive that just doesn’t fly. The future is hybrid cars- doesn’t matter if they burn propane, CNG, gasoline, or corn oil. The only problem is, there are only 3 hybrid cars on the market at the moment, and I won’t own any of them because they’re Asian imports. Ford is supposedly looking at a hybrid Explorer, and there’s long been a rumor of Chrysler looking at a hybrid Durango. I’ll wait for those.

Response:

The disadvantages are: – Expense of converting from gasoline to gas – Reduced power output

- Inconvenience – few places to refuel. – Running out of fuel in the middle of nowhere. I’m not against the technology.  I just won’t be leading the charge.  You go ahead and convert.  I’ll do it when I can refuel my vehicle.

Response:

I want to do something that will REALLY have an impact, something that will last longer than one day. I’m willing to do something really crazy. Are you as crazy as I am? Can we agree that the development of and transition to alternate energy sources is inevitable? Probably yes. Ever wonder why progress is so slow? If the price of oil (and gasoline) remains low enough to be tolerable, it actually hinders the development of and transition to alternate fuels. The oil supply chain knows this. If the price of oil goes up too high, then it makes investment in alternate fuels worthwhile. The oil supply chain knows this, too. It’s not really a plot against us, the consumer. They are just milking the cash cow. When the milk stops flowing, then it will be time for a barbecue! We are the demand, they are the supply. Whatever we demand, they will supply. So you see, we the consumers are part of the problem. One crazy thing we CAN do that will have a long term affect is to change the demand. We can convert our cars to use CNG or LPG (gas). This would do a number of things for us: +The gas distribution networks would have to grow to meet the increase in demand. This would create jobs, and generate a good return for investors. +Since the oil companies would likely be the ones selling the fuel, it should be business as usual for them. I’m sure they have already done their homework and have a plan in place to transition to any fuel there is demand for. +Some emissions from gas fuels are significantly lower than from gasoline, which could help to clean up the air. The ripple effect from this is a completely different subject, but it would be a good thing. +Our engines would last longer. Among other things, gasoline dilutes the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls, accelerating wear at the top. There are drawbacks to using gas. One is the expense of converting our cars to run on gas ($2000). The other is that the "energy density" (BTUs per pound) from gas is lower than gasoline. From what I’ve read, the reduction in output would be like driving your car in a higher altitude (3300′). It would be noticeable, but acceptable. Since the energy density is lower, it takes more gas gallons to produce the same amount of energy as gasoline. Therefore, the miles per gallon we get on gas will be about 10% less than on gasoline. For applications that require it, the reduction in power could be offset by using forced induction (turbo/super chargers), or increasing the boost level on forced induction engines. Chrysler produced a forced induction V8 engine in the late 90s for a Charger concept car that produced 340hp and ran on gas. So the research has already been done, and probably by other manufacturers as well. I would expect that the reduction in MPG could be minimized by optimizing the engine’s induction and control systems for gas. Most newer cars can be reprogrammed easily enough, hence the popularity and availability of "super chips". According to a web site I found in the UK, the reduction in MPG is more than offset by the lower cost per gallon. They also claim a 90% reduction in emissions. See: http://www.clsdualfuel.com/lpg.shtml, and http://www.lpga.co.uk/LPGA.htm The disadvantages are: – Expense of converting from gasoline to gas – Reduced power output Other technologies exist, but not as conversion kits for our cars. Gas conversion kits for our cars exist today. To take advantage of technologies like fuel cells will require more than a conversion kit. Our government subsidizes some of the most absurd endeavors. I suggest some of our tax money be spent to help us convert our cars to gas, and build the distribution network needed to reduce our dependency on oil. Do I sell or install gas conversion kits? I would if there were enough demand! =O Larntz

Response:

Steve wrote… The future is hybrid cars- doesn’t matter if they burn propane, CNG, gasoline, or corn oil. The only problem is, there are only 3 hybrid cars on the market at the moment, and I won’t own any of them because they’re Asian imports.

Three? Are you sure? According to the Department of Energy, there are only two hybird vehicles currently available to the general public: the Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius. Ford is supposedly looking at a hybrid Explorer, and there’s long been a rumor of Chrysler looking at a hybrid Durango. I’ll wait for those.

Actually, Ford’s soon-to-be released HEV is a modified version of the Escape light SUV; the Explorer would be too heavy to be practical as an HEV (note that both of the current HEVs, the Insight and the Prius, are much lighter than gas-engine vehicles of the same size). "Dodge is experimenting with a Durango that has a hybrid electric drive. Although it is close to being a production-ready vehicle, there are not plans yet to manufacture the Durango HEV. Such a vehicle would offer consumers appreciable performance improvements over its conventionally- powered counterparts. These include improvements in fuel economy and acceleration." (Source: http://www.ott.doe.gov/hev/concept.html) — Glenn Shaw Indianapolis, IN USA 1998 Plymouth Neon Highline Sedan E-mail? Please take out the garbage first….

Response:

I want to do something that will REALLY have an impact, something that will last longer than one day. I’m willing to do something really crazy. Are you as crazy as I am? Can we agree that the development of and transition to alternate energy sources is inevitable? Probably yes. Ever wonder why progress is so slow?

No, I *know* why the progress is slow. Look at the energy content of fuels in BTUs per pound. *NOTHING*, and I mean *nothing* comes anywhere close to fossil fuels. If the price of oil (and gasoline) remains low enough to be tolerable, it actually hinders the development of and transition to alternate fuels. The oil supply chain knows this. If the price of oil goes up too high, then it makes investment in alternate fuels worthwhile.

Or maybe "alternate fuels" just flat are NOT worthwhile, at least not at the current level of technical development. Our government subsidizes some of the most absurd endeavors. I suggest some of our tax money be spent to help us convert our cars to gas, and build the distribution network needed to reduce our dependency on oil.

There is (or at least WAS) a huge subsidy program here in Texas. The City of Austin bought a huge fleet of CNG vehicles. What an utter boondoggle- city busses that couldn’t keep schedule because if they ran out of fuel, they had to be TOWED back to the bus barn. They burned *millions* in tax dollars, and got a huge black eye by jumping to a technology that was many years away from being ready for prime-time. LNG (propane) is a different story. Folks have been converting to that since the early 70s- a neighbor on the next farm over had a propane-converted 454 GMC pickup back in 1973. The problem is refuelling. On a farm, everyone’s got a propane tank, a diesel tank, and a gasoline tank for the equipment anyway, but in your typical urban hive that just doesn’t fly. The future is hybrid cars- doesn’t matter if they burn propane, CNG, gasoline, or corn oil. The only problem is, there are only 3 hybrid cars on the market at the moment, and I won’t own any of them because they’re Asian imports. Ford is supposedly looking at a hybrid Explorer, and there’s long been a rumor of Chrysler looking at a hybrid Durango. I’ll wait for those.

Response:

The disadvantages are: – Expense of converting from gasoline to gas – Reduced power output

- Inconvenience – few places to refuel. – Running out of fuel in the middle of nowhere. I’m not against the technology.  I just won’t be leading the charge.  You go ahead and convert.  I’ll do it when I can refuel my vehicle.

Response:

I want to do something that will REALLY have an impact, something that will last longer than one day. I’m willing to do something really crazy. Are you as crazy as I am? Can we agree that the development of and transition to alternate energy sources is inevitable? Probably yes. Ever wonder why progress is so slow? If the price of oil (and gasoline) remains low enough to be tolerable, it actually hinders the development of and transition to alternate fuels. The oil supply chain knows this. If the price of oil goes up too high, then it makes investment in alternate fuels worthwhile. The oil supply chain knows this, too. It’s not really a plot against us, the consumer. They are just milking the cash cow. When the milk stops flowing, then it will be time for a barbecue! We are the demand, they are the supply. Whatever we demand, they will supply. So you see, we the consumers are part of the problem. One crazy thing we CAN do that will have a long term affect is to change the demand. We can convert our cars to use CNG or LPG (gas). This would do a number of things for us: +The gas distribution networks would have to grow to meet the increase in demand. This would create jobs, and generate a good return for investors. +Since the oil companies would likely be the ones selling the fuel, it should be business as usual for them. I’m sure they have already done their homework and have a plan in place to transition to any fuel there is demand for. +Some emissions from gas fuels are significantly lower than from gasoline, which could help to clean up the air. The ripple effect from this is a completely different subject, but it would be a good thing. +Our engines would last longer. Among other things, gasoline dilutes the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls, accelerating wear at the top. There are drawbacks to using gas. One is the expense of converting our cars to run on gas ($2000). The other is that the "energy density" (BTUs per pound) from gas is lower than gasoline. From what I’ve read, the reduction in output would be like driving your car in a higher altitude (3300′). It would be noticeable, but acceptable. Since the energy density is lower, it takes more gas gallons to produce the same amount of energy as gasoline. Therefore, the miles per gallon we get on gas will be about 10% less than on gasoline. For applications that require it, the reduction in power could be offset by using forced induction (turbo/super chargers), or increasing the boost level on forced induction engines. Chrysler produced a forced induction V8 engine in the late 90s for a Charger concept car that produced 340hp and ran on gas. So the research has already been done, and probably by other manufacturers as well. I would expect that the reduction in MPG could be minimized by optimizing the engine’s induction and control systems for gas. Most newer cars can be reprogrammed easily enough, hence the popularity and availability of "super chips". According to a web site I found in the UK, the reduction in MPG is more than offset by the lower cost per gallon. They also claim a 90% reduction in emissions. See: http://www.clsdualfuel.com/lpg.shtml, and http://www.lpga.co.uk/LPGA.htm The disadvantages are: – Expense of converting from gasoline to gas – Reduced power output Other technologies exist, but not as conversion kits for our cars. Gas conversion kits for our cars exist today. To take advantage of technologies like fuel cells will require more than a conversion kit. Our government subsidizes some of the most absurd endeavors. I suggest some of our tax money be spent to help us convert our cars to gas, and build the distribution network needed to reduce our dependency on oil. Do I sell or install gas conversion kits? I would if there were enough demand! =O Larntz

Response:

Question:

I’ve had the opportunity to review the X-Terra rather extensively and its difinitely not for soccer moms. What it really is is the last generation Pathfinder and any vehicle with a ladder frame and tires as big as he one i drove has got to be worth something off-road. On road performance, however, is not entirely pleasing with lathargic acceleration and pathetic cornering grip. Read more about the XTerra and other Nissan and 4WD vehicles on www.automotive-review.com * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

But its’ ride-oriented IFS and low ground clearance clearly make its’ intended duties as mainly an around town and a maybe a fire-road or two SUV purposes very clear. Jerry I’ve had the opportunity to review the X-Terra rather extensively and its difinitely not for soccer moms. What it really is is the last generation Pathfinder and any vehicle with a ladder frame and tires as big as he one i drove has got to be worth something off-road. On road performance, however, is not entirely pleasing with lathargic acceleration and pathetic cornering grip. Read more about the XTerra and other Nissan and 4WD vehicles on www.automotive-review.com * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

– Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL KC6TAY The Zen Hotdog… make me one with everything! Geezer Jeep:  http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/

Response:

Good news on the solid axles, and hopefully the writer is correct when he says the classic style will stay around.  Maybe there’s hope. I’m not sure what an "off road event" is, though.  My life is an off road event. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope, the Cherokee Classic is not being replaced with a "wimpified yuppiemobile"… at least not this year or the next year.  What you can expect to see happen is it will retain it’s solid axles but go to the all coil spring suspension that made the TJ Wrangler so hot offroad… which is also what the Grand Cherokee has.  And personally, I wouldn’t be caught dead in a serious off-road event in an XTerra. Jerry Howdy.  Let it be stated that I abhor the hoards of annoying, never-been-off-asphalt, city dwellers who make up 99% of the SUV crowd — as does any good, red-blooded 4×4 user.  So I apologize for the SUV post up front. Anyhoo, I currently live in West Africa and wouldn’t own anything else.  Jeep Cherokees and Toyotas have served well, both on unbelievably bad urban roads, and hunting out "in the bush". Will be in the US for a while and looking for a US-spec SUV in the low-$20K range.  Sadly that doesn’t give many options, but the stripped-down versions of the Ford Explorer and Toyota 4-Runner (4 cylinder model) have invoice prices around $23K to $24K-ish range. However, the X-Terra looks better than the cutie-pie mini SUVs like the CRX and Rav-4.  They come nicely loaded (V-6, etc.) for the same price as a stripped down Ford or Toyota, but how are they for ruggedness, ground clearance, and overall off-road (and/or bad road) abilities? Yes, the Jeep Cherokee Clasic is not on the list, but that’s because it looks like they are replacing it with a wimpified, yuppiemobile. Thanks! Before you buy. — Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL KC6TAY The Zen Hotdog… make me one with everything! Geezer Jeep:  http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/

Before you buy.

Response:

be a man, get a truck.

Response:

Be a man, use a skateboard! *;O) — Jeff Schwartz —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – be a man, get a truck.

Response:

Nope, the Cherokee Classic is not being replaced with a "wimpified yuppiemobile"… at least not this year or the next year.  What you can expect to see happen is it will retain it’s solid axles but go to the all coil spring suspension that made the TJ Wrangler so hot offroad… which is also what the Grand Cherokee has.  And personally, I wouldn’t be caught dead in a serious off-road event in an XTerra. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy.  Let it be stated that I abhor the hoards of annoying, never-been-off-asphalt, city dwellers who make up 99% of the SUV crowd — as does any good, red-blooded 4×4 user.  So I apologize for the SUV post up front. Anyhoo, I currently live in West Africa and wouldn’t own anything else.  Jeep Cherokees and Toyotas have served well, both on unbelievably bad urban roads, and hunting out "in the bush". Will be in the US for a while and looking for a US-spec SUV in the low-$20K range.  Sadly that doesn’t give many options, but the stripped-down versions of the Ford Explorer and Toyota 4-Runner (4 cylinder model) have invoice prices around $23K to $24K-ish range. However, the X-Terra looks better than the cutie-pie mini SUVs like the CRX and Rav-4.  They come nicely loaded (V-6, etc.) for the same price as a stripped down Ford or Toyota, but how are they for ruggedness, ground clearance, and overall off-road (and/or bad road) abilities? Yes, the Jeep Cherokee Clasic is not on the list, but that’s because it looks like they are replacing it with a wimpified, yuppiemobile. Thanks! Before you buy.

– Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL KC6TAY The Zen Hotdog… make me one with everything! Geezer Jeep:  http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/

Response:

Howdy.  Let it be stated that I abhor the hoards of annoying, never-been-off-asphalt, city dwellers who make up 99% of the SUV crowd — as does any good, red-blooded 4×4 user.  So I apologize for the SUV post up front. Anyhoo, I currently live in West Africa and wouldn’t own anything else.  Jeep Cherokees and Toyotas have served well, both on unbelievably bad urban roads, and hunting out "in the bush". Will be in the US for a while and looking for a US-spec SUV in the low-$20K range.  Sadly that doesn’t give many options, but the stripped-down versions of the Ford Explorer and Toyota 4-Runner (4 cylinder model) have invoice prices around $23K to $24K-ish range. However, the X-Terra looks better than the cutie-pie mini SUVs like the CRX and Rav-4.  They come nicely loaded (V-6, etc.) for the same price as a stripped down Ford or Toyota, but how are they for ruggedness, ground clearance, and overall off-road (and/or bad road) abilities? Yes, the Jeep Cherokee Clasic is not on the list, but that’s because it looks like they are replacing it with a wimpified, yuppiemobile. Thanks! Before you buy.

Response:

Actually Jeep is going to keep the old Cherokee around for awhile…. and bring the new one out anyway. They are already gearing up for 2001 production and I’ve been told they’ve stopped taking orders on new 2000’s. (So if you want a 2000 pick from what’s on the lot) Makes sense since the tooling has long been paid for and demand for them is still strong. Not to mention overseas. Anyway, the new Cherokee will utilize a 3.7L V6 and it *looks* like it has IFS instead of solid axles. It’ll be interesting to see how it compares offroad to the other products in Jeeps model line. Personally I wish Jeep would stick with solid axle designs. IFS can perform acceptably for moderate offroad use though… an example being the Toyota 4Runner. John 99 WJ 00 WJ

Response:

Ever see two TRerras in an accident with each other? I did. One t-boned by the other at an intersection here with a stop sign. An ugly sight, to put it mildly. I would imagine that for the right person with the "right" set of requirements the XTerra would make a marvelous choice of vehicle. I’m just not quite sure what those requirements are:) — Jeff Schwartz —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope, the Cherokee Classic is not being replaced with a "wimpified yuppiemobile"… at least not this year or the next year.  What you can expect to see happen is it will retain it’s solid axles but go to the all coil spring suspension that made the TJ Wrangler so hot offroad… which is also what the Grand Cherokee has.  And personally, I wouldn’t be caught dead in a serious off-road event in an XTerra. Jerry Howdy.  Let it be stated that I abhor the hoards of annoying, never-been-off-asphalt, city dwellers who make up 99% of the SUV crowd — as does any good, red-blooded 4×4 user.  So I apologize for the SUV post up front. Anyhoo, I currently live in West Africa and wouldn’t own anything else.  Jeep Cherokees and Toyotas have served well, both on unbelievably bad urban roads, and hunting out "in the bush". Will be in the US for a while and looking for a US-spec SUV in the low-$20K range.  Sadly that doesn’t give many options, but the stripped-down versions of the Ford Explorer and Toyota 4-Runner (4 cylinder model) have invoice prices around $23K to $24K-ish range. However, the X-Terra looks better than the cutie-pie mini SUVs like the CRX and Rav-4.  They come nicely loaded (V-6, etc.) for the same price as a stripped down Ford or Toyota, but how are they for ruggedness, ground clearance, and overall off-road (and/or bad road) abilities? Yes, the Jeep Cherokee Clasic is not on the list, but that’s because it looks like they are replacing it with a wimpified, yuppiemobile. Thanks! Before you buy. — Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL KC6TAY The Zen Hotdog… make me one with everything! Geezer Jeep:  http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/

Response:

Question:

this is inaccurate. i have a 94 4×4 v6 xcab p/u, which is very similar to the 4runner (they have coils out back, i have leafs). parts are widely available, and at prices competitive with the domestics. you don’t frequently have to buy parts for the toyota, so in the long run it’s much less expensive to own. i have 77k miles on my truck, quite a bit of off-road action, and it’s solid as a rock. it hasn’t had a single repair, except for the big recall campaign: to be fair, toyota had the v6 headgasket problem, but all headgaskets are fixed under warranty, whether they need it or not. had mine done just to be safe. the replacements are warranted as well. toyota has installed new engines when hg failures caused catastrophic failure. i have spent money on front brake pads, and misc nuts and bolts i had to replace. nothing else. i have added some aftermarket parts to the suspension for wheeling, but i literally have not had one repair. it has been aligned once (in 5 years), and will be again in april after i put the new torsion bars on. most auto parts stores have the common parts readily available, and at fair prices. many on-line sources have them at discounted prices. there is a *huge* aftermarket parts industry as well, get anything you want or need. people have to get over the mindset that parts are more expensive for toyotas. that applies when you’re replacing lots of parts, but utterly meaningless when you don’t have to go to the parts counter every other week — which is the case with toyota. joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might also reconsider American only. I’ve heard some great things about the Toyota 4runner. So have I!  The problem is that every owner I’ve talked to says they’re murderously expensive on parts. — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

Response:

Watch out for high theft vehicles. I don’t know about the 4runners but in OR/WA Toyota 4x trucks are a target. Christina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might also reconsider American only. I’ve heard some great things about the Toyota 4runner. So have I!  The problem is that every owner I’ve talked to says they’re murderously expensive on parts. — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

Response:

The point is its a toyota, you don’t need parts every week like an american truck.  seriously, it you investigate american part prices, distributors, alternators, water pumps etc. don’t cost $15 anymore.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might also reconsider American only. I’ve heard some great things about the Toyota 4runner. So have I!  The problem is that every owner I’ve talked to says they’re murderously expensive on parts. — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

Response:

My wife and I are thinking of replacing our venerable Volvo station wagon (it’s getting up there in miles). I want 4WD; she doesn’t want a pickup; we can’t afford a Subaru; Audi Quattros are too daggone expensive on parts; So, we’ve settled on a small SUV such as a Explorer, Blazer, or Jimmy (we would like to stay w/ american made). We’re looking for something from the early 90’s around $10k. My questions are: 1) Which are consistently more reliable, especially over 100k miles, Ford or GM? 2) We test drove a 93 Explorer but didn’t buy it because of some bad rust on the undercarriage.  Someone I talked to said this was a common Explorer problem around 92-94.  Can anyone confirm this? 3) Is there a website that has reliability ratings on used cars? Thanks very much! — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

Response:

So, we’ve settled on a small SUV such as a Explorer, Blazer, or Jimmy (we would like to stay w/ american made).

My new Chevy Tahoe was made in Mexico and my wife’s Nissan was made in Ohio. …. We’re looking for something from the early 90’s around $10k. My questions are: 1) Which are consistently more reliable, especially over 100k miles, Ford or GM?

Are you trying to start the age old Chevy vs Ford war again?? From my experience, my ‘90 Blazer had every electrical thing go bad on it after 100k miles. But my ‘87 Bronco had endless brake problems and leaks. 2) We test drove a 93 Explorer but didn’t buy it because of some bad rust on the undercarriage.  Someone I talked to said this was a common Explorer problem around 92-94.  Can anyone confirm this? 3) Is there a website that has reliability ratings on used cars?

Pick up a Consumers Report Buyer’s guide. Thanks very much! —

Joe Cacciatore

Response:

We’re looking for something from the early 90’s around $10k. My questions are: 1) Which are consistently more reliable, especially over 100k miles, Ford or GM? Are you trying to start the age old Chevy vs Ford war again?? From my experience, my ‘90 Blazer had every electrical thing go bad on it after 100k miles. But my ‘87 Bronco had endless brake problems and leaks.

HEAVENS NO!  I know how ugly that can get…Its just that my family had terrible experiences with Ford Broncos, while we’ve had two Chevy Blazers. In the two years we had the two Broncos, they gave us twice as much trouble as our two Blazers did in 6 years (well, except for the time my dad forgot to clamp the ball and drove a lawn tractor up onto the back of the trailer, putting the hitch throught the rear gate of the Blazer, but that’s another story! I’m interested in broader-based experience rather than just these four vehicles… 2) We test drove a 93 Explorer but didn’t buy it because of some bad rust on the undercarriage.  Someone I talked to said this was a common Explorer problem around 92-94.  Can anyone confirm this? 3) Is there a website that has reliability ratings on used cars? Pick up a Consumers Report Buyer’s guide.

I found them to be not nearly comprehensive enough. — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

Response:

I just bought a new Chevy Tahoe for a few reasons. Not just because it is "American made" but because I like the way it looks, handles, construction. I like the way I can go to any parts store and get what I need without being ripped off on price. I also have years of experince with Chevy 350 engines, etc. And it was A LOT cheaper than most foreign and other domestic SUVs.

Yeah, this is why I’m leaning towards a Chevy. — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

Response:

You might also reconsider American only. I’ve heard some great things about the Toyota 4runner.

So have I!  The problem is that every owner I’ve talked to says they’re murderously expensive on parts. — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

Response:

I just bought a new Chevy Tahoe for a few reasons. Not just because it is "American made" but because I like the way it looks, handles, construction. I like the way I can go to any parts store and get what I need without being ripped off on price. I also have years of experince with Chevy 350 engines, etc. And it was A LOT cheaper than most foreign and other domestic SUVs. My wife’s Nissan has been in the shop as many times as any other car we have had. So alot of it is luck and what YOU like and want. Regarding Toyotas, they made be made good but I hate the way most of them look. I know it is hard finding just the right SUV for you but keep looking. As you probaly know, there are a few car sites on line where you enter your search criteria (make, model, mileage, etc) and they will find a used car dealer near you who has it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, we’ve settled on a small SUV such as a Explorer, Blazer, or Jimmy (we would like to stay w/ american made). My new Chevy Tahoe was made in Mexico and my wife’s Nissan was made in Ohio. …. Well, it’s not just the "American Made’ thing.  I’m not really impressed by Nissan, Isuzu, etc. Toyotas, yes, but my understanding is that Nissan and Isuzu are less reliable all of them  and more expensive in maintenence (maybe that’s incorrect) But either way they’re harder to find around here in the condition/price range that we’re interested in. — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

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Oh great, another Ford vs. GM debate. I know everyone is going to have some strong opinions. Watch out for the emotional ones, they are the least credible. My mechanic would tell you to go with GM because the repairs are almost always 25-50% cheaper than Ford. In my meaningless anecdotal experience, he’s right. My brother-in-law blew his head gasket on his Ford Ranger. He managed to get an experienced mechanic friend to work on it with him for the price of a few beers when they were done. But the bill still came to $2000+ for parts. Earlier this year, I thought maybe I had blown my head gasket on my suburban. Turns out I didn’t, but the estimates I got were less than $1000 including labor. You might also reconsider American only. I’ve heard some great things about the Toyota 4runner.

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So, we’ve settled on a small SUV such as a Explorer, Blazer, or Jimmy (we would like to stay w/ american made). My new Chevy Tahoe was made in Mexico and my wife’s Nissan was made in Ohio. ….

Well, it’s not just the "American Made’ thing.  I’m not really impressed by Nissan, Isuzu, etc. Toyotas, yes, but my understanding is that Nissan and Isuzu are less reliable all of them  and more expensive in maintenence (maybe that’s incorrect) But either way they’re harder to find around here in the condition/price range that we’re interested in. — Lyle Beidler Pro/Engineer teaching assistant Online portfolio:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/lkb128/

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also have a Kenwood amp, KAC-943….and it has always been very dependable. It’s no frills, solid, and convenient (the built in crossovers are easy to use, and the built in fan is a little extra insurance that it won’t overheat.) That, and as mentioned before, Kenwood has very affordable amps for what you are getting.  If you are looking in that price range, then Kenwood is it.  But I have to say, if money is no object….invest in Phoenix Gold….I swear by my PG amp!!  I had my entire system (8 speakers including 2 subs) running off that amp with passive crossovers, and it was wired in parallel!!!  And it didn’t overheat or even get hot!!!  So there’s my opinion.  Budget minded-Kenwood….selling your right arm-Phoenix Gold.  =)  Thank god I still have all my limbs.  heh heh. Hope this helps, Scotty Sugarland, Texas ‘97 Ford Explorer Sport (FOR SALE) ‘99 Mustang GT (coming soon)

ADS or Fosgate. The best for the amount of money would be Coustic.

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ADS or Fosgate. The best for the amount of money would be Coustic.

…just to pile on this thread, I’ll vouch for the Rockford Fosgate puch series amps as well.  I’ve been nothing but impressed with the performance of mine since day one.  I use it for a sub amp, but I’d recommend something cleaner for the front stage if one is truly serious about the sound.  …but that will cost a *lot* more. ~gb ‘93 LX

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Definitly agree with the Coustics.  I have 2 of em’, they’re about 6 years old and I’ve never had a single problem.  They rock!  I hear the newer models are leaps and bounds better then the ones I have. Pheare – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ADS or Fosgate. The best for the amount of money would be Coustic.

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Has anybody upgraded that amp themselves and can they make any recommendations? TIA,

Fosgate & MTX for great lower priced amps.. And for very high end I would do either Phoenix Gold or Adcom.  I personally like the MTX series, wonderfully crisp amps for the price…  If I had all the money in the world, I probably would do Phoenix Gold. Dan

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I just installed a Phoenix Gold in my stang.  It is pushing 2 JL 10”.  It is the 2300XS model.  I love this amp.  It has tons of power.  I am barely pushing the amp and it pounds the 2 tens.  If your amp is just going to run subs…you can get away with a less expesive "dirtier amp".  If by any means it is going to be pushing components.  I would recommend phoenix for sure. Matt ‘98 Blk V6 5-speed CATZ-HYPER White PG 2300XS, 2JL 10w0;s Blackouts=25 more horsepower!!

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I was a professional car stereo installer for 2 years, and I have never used anything but Rockford Fosgate in my vehicles.  The Phoenix Gold amps are not bad, but they tend to mimic Rockford every time they come out with a new design.  My shop never had any problems with any of the Rockford amps.  I always recommended them for any vehicle I worked on.  I think that the Boston Acoustics ProSeries component speakers are a very good complement to the Rockford amps as well.  They are very accurate, and they sound like MUSIC, instead of speakers.  :) My current system in my Stang consists of an Alpine in-dash CD player, a 4-channel Rockford Fosgate 240.4 amp running two sets of Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.4 components.  One set in the front, housed in custom-built kick panels, and the other set in the factory locations next to the rear seat, mounted on a custom baffle.  I also have a Rockford Fosgate Punch 225.2 running three JL Audio 10" subwoofers in the hatchback.  I had to switch to a 130-amp alternator, and I am also running a Lightning Audio 1 Farad stiffening capacitor to supply any extra current demands. I have heard some systems recently that I was very impressed with.  They were running either the Class A SoundStream , Precision Power, or XTant amps.  XTant makes a very high quality product, but I would recommend having them installed by a professional. Hope some of this info helps! -Chad ‘89 GT Charcoal/Titanium "If you haven’t broken your T-5, you aren’t shifting it hard enough."

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I have heard some systems recently that I was very impressed with.  They were running either the Class A SoundStream , Precision Power, or XTant amps.  XTant makes a very high quality product, but I would recommend having them installed by a professional. Hope some of this info helps!

I have also heard alot about Xtant amps, they are more rare tho.  I can’t think of any dealer around here that carries them.  They do look sweet when they are professionally flush mounted in an amp rack! Dan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have heard some systems recently that I was very impressed with.  They were running either the Class A SoundStream , Precision Power, or XTant amps.  XTant makes a very high quality product, but I would recommend having them installed by a professional. Hope some of this info helps! I have also heard alot about Xtant amps, they are more rare tho.  I can’t think of any dealer around here that carries them.  They do look sweet when they are professionally flush mounted in an amp rack! Dan

  Everyone has their own opinions but Fosgate  is by NO means the BEST amp. If you want REAL sound then McIntosh or Butler is the way to go. Xtant is right up there and makes a VERY good amplifier as well. Fosgate, Orion, PPI and Soundstream are all affordable amps that are excellent quality. The best decks IMO by far are Eclipse if you can live without the detachable face then they are the BEST. These are my opinions but if there were to be unbiased people I think that they would also tend to agree for the most part. The install on the other hand is where you will see the MOST difference. If you have the money then definately have some custom work done. It both looks cool and sounds better as well. Anyway, good luck. Go to your local stereo stores and find someone you can TRUST and stick with them, it’ll pay off.

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I took my dashboard off to repair the heater core and I’m doing a few upgrades on the dash while it’s off. The car is an 86 GT conv. that has the stock tape player sound system. I’m looking at Crutchfield’s web site for a new in dash CD player and I’m considering upgrading the amp that’s in the top center speaker hole in the dash at the same time. Has anybody upgraded that amp themselves and can they make any recommendations? TIA, paul — The views expressed are the exclusive views of Paul C. Menten and do not reflect the views of the provider of network access.

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I took my dashboard off to repair the heater core and I’m doing a few upgrades on the dash while it’s off. The car is an 86 GT conv. that has the stock tape player sound system. I’m looking at Crutchfield’s web site for a new in dash CD player and I’m considering upgrading the amp that’s in the top center speaker hole in the dash at the same time. Has anybody upgraded that amp themselves and can they make any recommendations?

Ya I got a suggestion, don’t buy anything from Crutchfield.  Those prices are a racket, you can buy most stuff from a dealer for hundreds cheaper.

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The best amp I have played around with was / is made by Orion. They are kinda expensive when new but try and look around for a used Orion 225 HCCA. Try and pick one up that is not scratched up as they have a very nice red anodized heatsink. The amp can produce up to 400 Watts of continous power into a 1 ohm mono load. In your case, you may only make 100w total (you probably dont have enough speakers to take it to 1 ohm) but the amplifier will run very cool and stable and sound great. I regret selling my 250 HCCA model. I am now looking for one. Its the larger brother to the one I recommended for you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took my dashboard off to repair the heater core and I’m doing a few upgrades on the dash while it’s off. The car is an 86 GT conv. that has the stock tape player sound system. I’m looking at Crutchfield’s web site for a new in dash CD player and I’m considering upgrading the amp that’s in the top center speaker hole in the dash at the same time. Has anybody upgraded that amp themselves and can they make any recommendations? TIA, paul — The views expressed are the exclusive views of Paul C. Menten and do not reflect the views of the provider of network access.

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Kenwood.  Only Kenwood.  I installed a Kenwood amp with a JVC CD player and a bazooka bass tube.  (The majority of Kenwood amps have the bridge settings for subwoofers and are nicely priced).  Mine cost $140 and looks decent.                                Leor 87 GT convt black/red interior turbine rims JVC and JBL sound system

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I also have a Kenwood amp, KAC-943….and it has always been very dependable. It’s no frills, solid, and convenient (the built in crossovers are easy to use, and the built in fan is a little extra insurance that it won’t overheat.) That, and as mentioned before, Kenwood has very affordable amps for what you are getting.  If you are looking in that price range, then Kenwood is it.  But I have to say, if money is no object….invest in Phoenix Gold….I swear by my PG amp!!  I had my entire system (8 speakers including 2 subs) running off that amp with passive crossovers, and it was wired in parallel!!!  And it didn’t overheat or even get hot!!!  So there’s my opinion.  Budget minded-Kenwood….selling your right arm-Phoenix Gold.  =)  Thank god I still have all my limbs.  heh heh. Hope this helps, Scotty Sugarland, Texas ‘97 Ford Explorer Sport (FOR SALE) ‘99 Mustang GT (coming soon)

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Question:

I have been towing  a 91 Explorer for almost 9 yrs w/4 wheels down, all I have is the drive shaft disconnect by Remco .the only problem I had was the cable broke 1 time and I had to reingage by hand until I got a new cable . I have over 104,000 miles showing + I have towed it over 70,000 behind the coach that dont show will be getting a new 1 soon . I have the 2 door with 2 wheel drive.

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I would like some information on what it takes to properly set up a 94 Ford Exp for towing – preferably all four on the ground.

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set up a 94 Ford Exp for towing – preferably all four on the ground.

IMHO that vehicle is too heavy to tow behind anything other than a Diesel pusher of at least 275HP.  Check your Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) of your MH.  The combined weight of your MH and the weight of your Ford must be below the GCWR.  If all that checks out ok, then: 1. If your Ford is a 2WD and manual tranny, just put it in neutral and go. 2. If your Ford is 4WD with manual transfer case and either auto or manual tranny, put everything in neutral and go. 3. If your Ford is not 1 or 2 above, then you will need to install a Remco driveshaft dis-connect. 4.  What ever is the case, you will need to do something about lights.  Some folks use an accessory light bar.  I like the solid state diode setup that requires no attention whatever other than plugging in the wiring harness between your toad and MH. Gee Bee

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Question:

This Truck was DESIGNED with Off-Roading in mine Higher Clearance narrown stance short wheelbase large Tranny Hump (getsit up and out of the way for more clearance No low hanging components begging to be ripped off (except that damn muffler keep denting it)

  Higher clearance than what? A Ford Explorer?- —–Muskie

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LOL!!!  Imminent risk of death from body roll?  Have you ever actually rolled a Disco?  I doubt it.  The body roll is from the suspension being soft for off road use.  The chance of actually rolling over is very slim.  Remember, the Discovery is designed to actually be used off road (no insult intended to the Jeep).

        Well, I’ve done about 100,000 miles in Discos. One from before anti-roll bars were fitted as standard, and one after they bacame standard. One on 205R16, the other on 235/70-16 tyres, so I think I’ve got a fair amount of experience of the different variants of the things. I’ve towed horse trailers on and off-road, I’ve carted radio gear offroad to hilltops I’ve cruised along motorways and I’ve pushed them quickly along winding roads.         Discos are capable of quite good cornering. The amount of body-roll can be disquieting for passengers who are not used to it on winding roads, particularly with the version without anti-roll bars. With both versions, drivers normally bottle out long before the grip gives out. I reckon this is a safety feature. Offroad, my Discos did everything I asked of them. Perhaps I didn’t push them quite to their limits, but I was using them to get things to places, not experimenting with their capabilities. I didn’t find any great loss from the addition of the anti-roll bars.         I’ve driven Cherokees and a Grand Cherokee. They certainly give a much more "car-like" feel on the road. This seems to come from greater roll-stiffness in the suspension allied to lower centre-of-gravity. I found that they offered surprising acceleration on-road compared to the Diesel Disco I’d become acclimatised to, but then the much lighter construction without that monster chassis does wonders for power to weight ratio. I was seriously considering buying a JGC – it would have saved me a lot of money compared to what I eventually wound up with. The Jeep could have managed to get me to most of the places I sometimes go, but because I often tow heavy trailers, I felt more confident about sticking with separate chassis construction. I’d just had a Discovery that had proven to be, shall we say, somewhat bug-ridden and I was looking around quite seriously, but I accepted that the things could certainly take the heavy usage I dished out if I could put up with the ancillary irritations. I could give a damn about the 0-60 time for the Disco, as I’m not expecting sports car performance.  If I were concerned about 0-60 times, I wouldn’t be looking at a sport utility in the first place – it’s a matter of priorities.

         Perhaps we ought to suggest a Caterham 7 to him   I’ve always considered the 205GTi and the 7 to be outstanding point-to-point cars that can embarrass a lot of "super-cars" Not much use up a fire-break, but then if the criteria for selection are cornering and acceleration…..    Cheers            David

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOL!!!  Imminent risk of death from body roll?  Have you ever actually rolled a Disco?  I doubt it.  The body roll is from the suspension being soft for off road use.  The chance of actually rolling over is very slim.  Remember, the Discovery is designed to actually be used off road (no insult intended to the Jeep).         Well, I’ve done about 100,000 miles in Discos. One from before anti-roll bars were fitted as standard, and one after they bacame standard. One on 205R16, the other on 235/70-16 tyres, so I think I’ve got a fair amount of experience of the different variants of the things. I’ve towed horse trailers on and off-road, I’ve carted radio gear offroad to hilltops I’ve cruised along motorways and I’ve pushed them quickly along winding roads.         Discos are capable of quite good cornering. The amount of body-roll can be disquieting for passengers who are not used to it on winding roads, particularly with the version without anti-roll bars. With both versions, drivers normally bottle out long before the grip gives out. I reckon this is a safety feature. Offroad, my Discos did everything I asked of them. Perhaps I didn’t push them quite to their limits, but I was using them to get things to places, not experimenting with their capabilities. I didn’t find any great loss from the addition of the anti-roll bars. I’ve driven Cherokees and a Grand Cherokee. They certainly give a much more "car-like" feel on the road. This seems to come from greater roll-stiffness in the suspension allied to lower centre-of-gravity. I found that they offered surprising acceleration on-road compared to the Diesel Disco I’d become acclimatised to, but then the much lighter construction without that monster chassis does wonders for power to weight ratio. I was seriously considering buying a JGC – it would have saved me a lot of money compared to what I eventually wound up with. The Jeep could have managed to get me to most of the places I sometimes go, but because I often tow heavy trailers, I felt more confident about sticking with separate chassis construction. I’d just had a Discovery that had proven to be, shall we say, somewhat bug-ridden and I was looking around quite seriously, but I accepted that the things could certainly take the heavy usage I dished out if I could put up with the ancillary irritations. I could give a damn about the 0-60 time for the Disco, as I’m not expecting sports car performance.  If I were concerned about 0-60 times, I wouldn’t be looking at a sport utility in the first place – it’s a matter of priorities.          Perhaps we ought to suggest a Caterham 7 to him   I’ve always considered the 205GTi and the 7 to be outstanding point-to-point cars that can embarrass a lot of "super-cars" Not much use up a fire-break, but then if the criteria for selection are cornering and acceleration…..    Cheers            David

That’s about the most sence anybody in this thread has come up with yet. I would argue that you should try the JGC for towing, it’s way better than you probably imagine,  use mine for towing a 22′ car trailer with race car, fuel, tools, tyres, etc. all up some 2,700 KG’s, and it’s never worried me yet, the relative stiffness on the JGC makes it a good stable towing platform, and it has the brakes to stop it. As for the Caterham 7 idear, I have a Lotus Elise Sport that I race, way more fun! Simon

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also remember than ANY vehicle with the JEEP name can complete the Rubicon Stock So I would say a MUCH larger than 50% is the driver ! Granted Vehicle helps but Driver is everything Every Time I go out in My Cherokee Off-Roading (once a month minimum and its my daily driver 54 miles EACH way to and from work) I do a Little more than I thought I or my Truck could do Because Each Time I go out I get a little more experience I go through the same holes when I dare than the Wranglers and Bronco’s with 33 and 35 inch tires go though and I usually make it to ! And Sometime I strap up a wrangler and pull them out of the hole that I just cleared (sometimes a Longer wheelbase Rules My Cherokee and similar vehicles (discovery FJ’s Rang Rover) have an advantage of there mixture of Almost as small as a wrangler but not as big as say a GC or Minivan etc… My Cherokee is as narrow as a Wrangler but a little longer but not to long While the wrangler has all four wheels in the hole After my front wheels get into the hole my rear wheels push me farther and usually by the time my rear wheels are in the hole my front wheels are out and can then PULL my rear out with them We had a technical section in forkid river Ravine type stuff Very TIght have to hit it right tech stuff My Cherokee went through EVERY single portion that the Wranglers Bronco’s and TOyota FJ’40 whent through with there 33 35 and 38 " tires and my 31" tires Is my Truck better than theres ? NO is it better than a Disco ? dont know maybe maybe not but I CAN say it is a DAMNED good Truck Performance and reliability ON and OFF the road in ANY Conditions ! This Truck was DESIGNED with Off-Roading in mine Higher Clearance narrown stance short wheelbase large Tranny Hump (getsit up and out of the way for more clearance No low hanging components begging to be ripped off (except that damn muffler keep denting it) Air Intake High and protected Screw on DIST cap water tight easy access Oil change and check Breather Hoses ran High for Rear’s and Tranny Transfer case Huge articulation abilities consider the design of the truck I scored a 438 on RTI ramp and Just over 600 on the ramp JUST by disconnecting the from sway bar and THIS in a CHEROKEE with little mods 3" lift 31" tires I scored Higher than most wranglers and Higher than ANY stock TJ This is NOT to brag or to say My vehicle is better than yours but it IS to say I have a GOOD truck on Road AND off ROad ! I did the Rock Crawl Challenge at Rock Crawl 98 and I cleaned up No damage breezed through it NICE AND SLOW took me twice as long maybe but I made it CLEANLY never lost traction and only a few Scratches (underside that I could hear) this combined with A GOOD truck and Absolute Trust in a VERY good Spotter who literally walked me through the entire thing ! We went on the trail sunday and I had to bypass NOTHING and never took more than 2 tries to get something As Slow as Possible as fast as needed !! Afterwards I was asked how I did that I mean it looks stock and I have 2 OPEN diffs )this suprised a lot of people) I told them I have a tuff truck NOT a great truck but a Tuff Truck and an EXCELLENT spotter ! Chris http://www.nerys.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, the Jeep is not so capable vehicle as compared to any Disco’s, although Jeep loyalists will always disagree as they believe there is no match for a Jeep. Landrovers and Toyota Landcruisers have set excellent There’s another problem.  The current yuppie fad in north america causes bad perceptions.  The local offroad club, comprised off many models of short-wheelbase Jeeps, sammys, and fullsize pickups among others decided to tag along with the local land-rover offroad club.  They finally decided to call it quits after about 3 hours of "off-road" travel when they found they were still in 2Hi while the local land-rover yuppies were so excited at their "off-road experience". So what’s your point?  The Land Rover owners had likely never been off road before, while the local off road club was likely very experienced.  How many of the vehicles in the local off road club are still stock? Remember, at least half the equation is the driver. — Geoffrey Reynolds 1995 Land Rover Discovery Rovers North Roof Rack 4 Hella Rallye 4000’s 1 Hella Work Light To avoid spam mail, my return address has been modified.

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DAMN STRAIGHT Chris http://www.nerys.com/ http://www.nerys.com/myjeep/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There’s another problem.  The current yuppie fad in north america causes bad perceptions.  The local offroad club, comprised off many models of short-wheelbase Jeeps, sammys, and fullsize pickups among others decided to tag along with the local land-rover offroad club.  They finally decided to call it quits after about 3 hours of "off-road" travel when they found they were still in 2Hi while the local land-rover yuppies were so excited at their "off-road experience". So what’s your point?  The Land Rover owners had likely never been off road before, while the local off road club was likely very experienced.  How many of the vehicles in the local off road club are still stock? The ‘Problem’ is, is that there is too much in the way of competition between the different groups of off-roaders.  The yuppies with the expensive vehicles and snobby attitudes can’t handle the ugly bastard rigs of the experienced off-roaders, and the experienced off-roaders have no toleration for the inexperience and snobby ‘tudes from the yuppies. If everybody would learn how to get along and play together, then the yuppies might learn something and the experienced off-roaders might have some more friends willing to go play. The real enemy is the government and their crusade to piss everybody off by closing the ever shrinking list of trails.  Let’s focus, people! Eric — Opinions, everybody’s got one of those, too. You know how to Reply…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There’s another problem.  The current yuppie fad in north america causes bad perceptions.  The local offroad club, comprised off many models of short-wheelbase Jeeps, sammys, and fullsize pickups among others decided to tag along with the local land-rover offroad club.  They finally decided to call it quits after about 3 hours of "off-road" travel when they found they were still in 2Hi while the local land-rover yuppies were so excited at their "off-road experience". So what’s your point?  The Land Rover owners had likely never been off road before, while the local off road club was likely very experienced.  How many of the vehicles in the local off road club are still stock?

The ‘Problem’ is, is that there is too much in the way of competition between the different groups of off-roaders.  The yuppies with the expensive vehicles and snobby attitudes can’t handle the ugly bastard rigs of the experienced off-roaders, and the experienced off-roaders have no toleration for the inexperience and snobby ‘tudes from the yuppies. If everybody would learn how to get along and play together, then the yuppies might learn something and the experienced off-roaders might have some more friends willing to go play. The real enemy is the government and their crusade to piss everybody off by closing the ever shrinking list of trails.  Let’s focus, people! Eric — Opinions, everybody’s got one of those, too. You know how to Reply…

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After all, we all know that the Dicovery is the least reliable LR product ever made, and that’s from a company that has a poor record in the first place!

I bought a Land Rover Series III-88 new in 1973 and still drive it today.  It is the most reliable vehicle have ever owned, not once quitting on the road or failing to start in 25 years.  Note that I did NOT say the Series III has been the most maintenance-free vehicle I’ve ever owned, only the most reliable.  The most maintenance-free vehicle I have owned is our 1991 Range Rover.  The BMW, VW, Toyota, and Ford pickup we own have all fallen quite a bit behind the two Rovers in terms of reliability. C. Marin Faure   (original owner)   1973 Land Rover Series III-88   1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

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American quality is the among the finest in the world, you would know that if you had been paying attention since the 1970’s.  Obviously you have never seen a Japanese plant, they "mass" produce.  The English, I understand, only have a few automakers that no longer mass produce and LandRover is not among them. Good for your friend with the GC, they ALL make lemons sometimes. Here’s a clue jerry.  Take a LandRover, a Toyota Landcruiser, and a jeep Wrangler.  Put all the money you saved with the Wrangler over the price of either the LandRover or the Toyota and invest in modifications.  I assure you that Wrangler will go places that no LandRover or Landcruiser off the lot could ever in your wildest imagination could go. For the cost of the LandRover or the Landcruiser they should be more than twice the vehicle the jeep is.  However they are only equivalent. Don – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, the Jeep is not so capable vehicle as compared to any Disco’s, although Jeep loyalists will always disagree as they believe there is no match for a Jeep. Landrovers and Toyota Landcruisers have set excellent examples and are far way ahead than Jeeps. The problems associated with Jeep are very obvious, they are not everlasting and owners end up spending more and more eventually the vehicle has no resale value and least of all they come packed with dissapointing surprises. My friend just traded his GC for a Rodeo, simply because he was too tired of fixing his GC month after month, and finally he realised it was a bad investment. Well, have to point out one thing very clear, American quality is inferior and will stay the same, but they do believe in mass production, one of the reasons for poor product quality.

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Yes, the Jeep is not so capable vehicle as compared to any Disco’s, although Jeep loyalists will always disagree as they believe there is no match for a Jeep. Landrovers and Toyota Landcruisers have set excellent There’s another problem.  The current yuppie fad in north america causes bad perceptions.  The local offroad club, comprised off many models of short-wheelbase Jeeps, sammys, and fullsize pickups among others decided to tag along with the local land-rover offroad club.  They finally decided to call it quits after about 3 hours of "off-road" travel when they found they were still in 2Hi while the local land-rover yuppies were so excited at their "off-road experience".

So what’s your point?  The Land Rover owners had likely never been off road before, while the local off road club was likely very experienced.  How many of the vehicles in the local off road club are still stock? Remember, at least half the equation is the driver. — Geoffrey Reynolds 1995 Land Rover Discovery Rovers North Roof Rack 4 Hella Rallye 4000’s 1 Hella Work Light To avoid spam mail, my return address has been modified.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geoffrey, OK then, let’s quantify what I mean. This is like one of those fairy tail story’s After all, we all know that the Dicovery is the least reliable LR product ever made, and that’s from a company that has a poor record in the first place! While the Discovery has had major reliability problems, there have been some really good ones.  It’s not too hard to believe that a few people have received flawless vehicles… Statisticaly you must be correct, I was just going on the last 3 JD powers surveys.

Well your "fairy tail" comment sounded like you were calling the original poster a liar… Combine that with crap handeling, no power, thirst for fuel, cost, etc. etc. then it’s a real winner! Crap handling?  Compared to a sports car, maybe.  Compared to the average sport utility vehicle, I don’t agree.  If you’re looking for sports car handling then buy a sports car! I drive a Jeep GC, it’s no sports car, but it will take corners at speed without extreme body roll, and iminet risk of death, I have has the misfortune to drive disco’s a lot, and they are a dinosaur in comparison, there are many companies un the UK that offer suspention upgrade kits to resolve some of this, but it’s basicaly not good.

LOL!!!  Imminent risk of death from body roll?  Have you ever actually rolled a Disco?  I doubt it.  The body roll is from the suspension being soft for off road use.  The chance of actually rolling over is very slim.  Remember, the Discovery is designed to actually be used off road (no insult intended to the Jeep). No power?  Sorry, but I can’t agree with you here either.  My Disco has more than adequate acceleration.  Overtaking other vehicles on the highway is very good.  Performance on hills is fine.  Power for off road use is excellent. Err, what? – Off hand I cannot remember to 0-60 time for the disco, but I know it’s at least 4 secs slower than the 4.0L JGC, and as for the TDi, it’s ridiculously slow.

I could give a damn about the 0-60 time for the Disco, as I’m not expecting sports car performance.  If I were concerned about 0-60 times, I wouldn’t be looking at a sport utility in the first place – it’s a matter of priorities. Thirst for fuel – what do you expect from a V8???  Living in the UK, you also have the option of a diesel engine, which we don’t get over here in the United States. Well, the V8 is a smaller, less powerfull engine than the 4.0L Jeep, but it’s fuel consumption is some 40% worse, and as for the TDi, in real life it acheves little more than the 22MPG (Imp Galls) I get from the Jeep.

As I said, what do you expect from a V8??? — Geoffrey Reynolds 1995 Land Rover Discovery Rovers North Roof Rack 4 Hella Rallye 4000’s 1 Hella Work Light To avoid spam mail, my return address has been modified.

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I suspect that LR will have to pick up their pace a bit with the quality issue (assuming that they haven’t already) now that they are officially BMW owned. I had my new Freelander delivered exactly 1 month ago today and I’m really happy with it and the after-sales service, but I digress… Depending on what you really want to do with the buggy… why not have a look at the Freelanders? You get the same wheel base as the disco (exactly the same, apparently) but they are a great deal cheaper (at least they are here in the UK). I would probably go with the Disco if I were pulling heavy trailers as the Freelander is yet to be released with the new V6 enginer over here but apart from that… One of my mates bought a 2nd hand ‘96 Disco and he loves it. He’s not had any problems as yet and he’s had it for a year and a half now. Cheers. Adam Flemming – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go with the Jeep by all means.  In 1996, Land Rover was still not concerned about quality control, in my not so humble opinion. (I am not really sure that they are now, when it comes right down to it.)  Further, from your brief description of the use to which you will put whatever you buy, the Jeep will certainly be more than up to the job. I’m looking to buy either a 96 Discovery SE or a 99 Jeep Classic.  We will be using the car to get to and from work during the week and off-roading in the mountains occasionally.  We’ve heard some negative things about the reliability of Discoverys.  Can anyone confirm or deny?  What about a comparison with the Jeep for reliability and safety? Thanks in advance. Stacey — Grant Wilkinson Ottawa, Canada

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My 97 Cherokee Sport a complete lemon. Jeep quality is and has been in the crapper since the explosion of suv popularity. I’m losing 1/3 of the purchase price on trade for my 99 4Runner and not shedding a tear. Will not miss Jeep one bit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m looking to buy either a 96 Discovery SE or a 99 Jeep Classic.  We will be using the car to get to and from work during the week and off-roading in the mountains occasionally.  We’ve heard some negative things about the reliability of Discoverys.  Can anyone confirm or deny?  What about a comparison with the Jeep for reliability and safety? Thanks in advance. Stacey

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I’m looking to buy either a 96 Discovery SE or a 99 Jeep Classic.  We will be using the car to get to and from work during the week and off-roading in the mountains occasionally.  We’ve heard some negative things about the reliability of Discoverys.  Can anyone confirm or deny?  What about a comparison with the Jeep for reliability and safety?

If you end up preferring the Discovery, you might want to wait for the new model which is 8 inches longer (probably using the new Range Rover chassis as opposed to the current Discovery which uses the old Range Rover chassis).  In my opinion the Discovery’s greatest drawback is the lack of length in the cargo area behind the rear seats.  The height is great, but the cargo box is very short.  Other than that, your decision boils down to personal choice. The advantages of the Discovery (to me) are a higher driving position, more passenger space, the side-hinged rear door, stronger frame and chassis components, and superior off-road capabilities (the Jeep fans dispute the last two items, but everyone has their opinion.)  Although I’ve driven a lot of Discoveries in the UK and have just about zero driving experience in the Jeep Cherokee/Grand Cherokee, the advantages that I see to the Jeep are more dealers to pick from, possibly better and less expensive dealer service, superior on-road capabilities, better fuel efficiency, and a great engine if you get the 4.0 six (I don’t know enough about the V-8 to give an opinion one way or the other). Discoveries had real quality-control problems in the mid-1990s.  From what I’ve heard and experienced they have been dealt with, and today’s Discovery is on a par with most everything else except maybe the Toyota Landcruiser/Lexus 450.  Jeep had a horrible reputation, too, a few years ago, but the quality of the Cherokee/Grand Cherokee seems to have been very good over the last several years. From the description of your potential uses, I suspect either vehicle will be more than capable of delivering the performance you want.  It will really boil down to which one has the style and features you like. However, there is a real advantage to going with a brand new vehicle as you start out with a clean sheet of paper.  If you intend to keep the vehicle for a long time, I’d recommend getting a new one as you will then have complete control over its maintenance from day one as opposed to inheriting the problems caused by a previous owner’s neglect. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

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Yes, the Jeep is not so capable vehicle as compared to any Disco’s, although Jeep loyalists will always disagree as they believe there is no match for a Jeep. Landrovers and Toyota Landcruisers have set excellent examples and are far way ahead than Jeeps. The problems associated with Jeep are very obvious, they are not everlasting and owners end up spending more and more eventually the vehicle has no resale value and least of all they come packed with dissapointing surprises. My friend just traded his GC for a Rodeo, simply because he was too tired of fixing his GC month after month, and finally he realised it was a bad investment. Well, have to point out one thing very clear, American quality is inferior and will stay the same, but they do believe in mass production, one of the reasons for poor product quality.  

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Yes, the Jeep is not so capable vehicle as compared to any Disco’s, although Jeep loyalists will always disagree as they believe there is no match for a Jeep. Landrovers and Toyota Landcruisers have set excellent

There’s another problem.  The current yuppie fad in north america causes bad perceptions.  The local offroad club, comprised off many models of short-wheelbase Jeeps, sammys, and fullsize pickups among others decided to tag along with the local land-rover offroad club.  They finally decided to call it quits after about 3 hours of "off-road" travel when they found they were still in 2Hi while the local land-rover yuppies were so excited at their "off-road experience".

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I can not argue for or against the Discovery etc.. for I have never owned one or even sat in one BUT I can argue the position of My Cherokee It has over 156,000 miles on it It had 92,000 when I got it 2 years ago I have been on over a dozen 4 wheeling trips with it I have drivent 1500 miles trips with it to alabama I have driven it to Indiana this summer for a Rocketry meet all this with a BAD engine that needs to be replaced since i sucked up a quart and a half of Water into my oil (My mistake should not have attempted that hole stock I have a 3" lift and 31" tires skidplates etc… It eats a quart of oil every 2 weeks (bad engine) yet with all of this I made that 15 hour 650 miles trip to indiana and same back with no worries With my lift and tires and bad engine I still get 17mpg the ONLY complaints I have had are 2 I keep killing my alternator with mud Grrr My Roof Rack Sucks (then again I have a 31" tire and rim up there it probably was not intended to do that) It is the most reliable Vehicle I have ever owned and have ever driven in it will NOT leave me  stranded I got rear ended at 25mph Not a scratch Lift helped so did that cars scooped hood Sadly I was not paying attention today and rear ended someone else at 5-10 mph he was lifted to so my front and his rear bumpers are toast My front grill it dented a little Otherwise Totally undamage and completely functional I offroad with some of the best CJ Yj and TJ’s out there and Hold my own This is one TUFF truck Reliable hard Working and it continues to Function not only usably but WELL under severe conditions Rings Bearings etc.. in engine are basically gone (again my fault) and it just keeps on going With all these problems going on a trip Reliability is the last thing on my mind ! You talk about resale value This is not relevant to me I plan to put at least a million miles on my cherokee JUST to show it can be done and I plan to NEVER sell my Cherokee EVER This is my permanent Vehicle I may own Others but NEVER to replace my Cherokee so What I can resell it for means nothing to me I like the way it looks I like its reliability I like its adaptability I like its effeciency even under not so ideal conditions I like its performance I like my Jeep if I ever own a Discovery I will let you know what I think of it compared to my Jeep but Personally I dont even like the way they Look except those curved windows into the ceiling are very cool Chris http://www.nerys.com/

Yes, the Jeep is not so capable vehicle as compared to any Disco’s, although Jeep loyalists will always disagree as they believe there is no match for a Jeep. Landrovers and Toyota Landcruisers have set excellent examples and are far way ahead than Jeeps. The problems associated with Jeep are very obvious, they are not everlasting and owners end up spending more and more eventually the vehicle has no resale value and least of all they come packed with dissapointing surprises. My friend just traded his GC for a Rodeo, simply because he was too tired of fixing his GC month after month, and finally he realised it was a bad investment. Well, have to point out one thing very clear, American quality is inferior and will stay the same, but they do believe in mass production, one of the reasons for poor product quality.

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Geoffrey, OK then, let’s quantify what I mean.

I am  not trying to start some crap but I have a 97 Discovery that had its share of problems but i would not trade it for a JGC for anything.  It uses a lot of gas but that is about it. It must be a matter of taste. The body roll on a discovery is low compared to the 6.5 feet tall It may be a little slower than the JGC but last time i was rockcrawling i didnt go 60. The jgc is just not as strong a built truck if you think it is its like me thinking my rover is a porshe….

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I too like my ‘98 Disco very much. I have heard of the problems LR has for quite sometime, but can’t relate since my truck is ‘98. I believe the BMW ownership has something to do with the better quality on newer vehicles from LR. So far this vehicle is nothing but awsome when it comes to off-roading. I realized long ago (after learning about centre of mass in grade school) that this isn’t a sports car like some people think they are when they jump into a SUV. The ride is comfortable, I can afford the gas bill, and I am not in a hurry when climbing the narrow mountain passes in BC while in low ration 1st gear – the windows are so large that you start to enjoy the view instead of trying to speed all the time. In short, the Disco is not for everyone. If you want car-like performance, buy a car. If you want 0-60 performance, buy a Viper. And if you want fuel economy, buy a Honda. Raymond

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This is like one of those fairy tail story’s After all, we all know that the Dicovery is the least reliable LR product ever made, and that’s from a company that has a poor record in the first place!

While the Discovery has had major reliability problems, there have been some really good ones.  It’s not too hard to believe that a few people have received flawless vehicles… Combine that with crap handeling, no power, thirst for fuel, cost, etc. etc. then it’s a real winner!

Crap handling?  Compared to a sports car, maybe.  Compared to the average sport utility vehicle, I don’t agree.  If you’re looking for sports car handling then buy a sports car! No power?  Sorry, but I can’t agree with you here either.  My Disco has more than adequate acceleration.  Overtaking other vehicles on the highway is very good.  Performance on hills is fine.  Power for off road use is excellent. Thirst for fuel – what do you expect from a V8???  Living in the UK, you also have the option of a diesel engine, which we don’t get over here in the United States. — Geoffrey Reynolds 1995 Land Rover Discovery Rovers North Roof Rack 4 Hella Rallye 4000’s 1 Hella Work Light To avoid spam mail, my return address has been modified.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geoffrey, OK then, let’s quantify what I mean. I am  not trying to start some crap but I have a 97 Discovery that had its share of problems but i would not trade it for a JGC for anything.  It uses a lot of gas but that is about it. It must be a matter of taste. The body roll on a discovery is low compared to the 6.5 feet tall It may be a little slower than the JGC but last time i was rockcrawling i didnt go 60. The jgc is just not as strong a built truck if you think it is its like me thinking my rover is a porshe….

What?  Your point? I know I am English, but I am strugling to understand the flow of your reply. Simon

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Geoffrey, OK then, let’s quantify what I mean. This is like one of those fairy tail story’s After all, we all know that the Dicovery is the least reliable LR product ever made, and that’s from a company that has a poor record in the first place! While the Discovery has had major reliability problems, there have been some really good ones.  It’s not too hard to believe that a few people have received flawless vehicles…

Statisticaly you must be correct, I was just going on the last 3 JD powers surveys. Combine that with crap handeling, no power, thirst for fuel, cost, etc. etc. then it’s a real winner! Crap handling?  Compared to a sports car, maybe.  Compared to the average sport utility vehicle, I don’t agree.  If you’re looking for sports car handling then buy a sports car!

I drive a Jeep GC, it’s no sports car, but it will take corners at speed without extreme body roll, and iminet risk of death, I have has the misfortune to drive disco’s a lot, and they are a dinosaur in comparison, there are many companies un the UK that offer suspention upgrade kits to resolve some of this, but it’s basicaly not good. No power?  Sorry, but I can’t agree with you here either.  My Disco has more than adequate acceleration.  Overtaking other vehicles on the highway is very good.  Performance on hills is fine.  Power for off road use is excellent.

Err, what? – Off hand I cannot remember to 0-60 time for the disco, but I know it’s at least 4 secs slower than the 4.0L JGC, and as for the TDi, it’s ridiculously slow. Thirst for fuel – what do you expect from a V8???  Living in the UK, you also have the option of a diesel engine, which we don’t get over here in the United States.

Well, the V8 is a smaller, less powerfull engine than the 4.0L Jeep, but it’s fuel consumption is some 40% worse, and as for the TDi, in real life it acheves little more than the 22MPG (Imp Galls) I get from the Jeep. Regards Simon

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This is like one of those fairy tail story’s After all, we all know that the Dicovery is the least reliable LR product ever made, and that’s from a company that has a poor record in the first place! Combine that with crap handeling, no power, thirst for fuel, cost, etc. etc. then it’s a real winner! Simon PS. I am British, and would normaly support our own industries, but LR are just too much! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do not buy Jeeps, they are too expensive now and ugly, bulky monsters and I hated my 94 JGC, gave me all kinds of problems which haunted me for a long time. It was too noisy, even smaller things like gas guage failures pissed me off, not to menton service dealers had little consideration and were rude as well. I now own a 97 Discovery and have no problems, great truck, very spacious and most of all it’s fun to drive off-road, I mean serious ofroading, (not a gravel path in a country club). The four wheel drive is robust and capable of tackling all kinds of jobs and what I like best is the boxed steel frame. On our weekend trip to Vermont, we could feel the quiet green rolling hills and bucolic farmlands and I learnt a few braking techniques where maneuvering the Discovery through narrow tree lined paths, abrupt hills, muddy bogs, ditches and sand pits gave us the sensation of a sure ride. And the service and support I receive from my dealer are  second to none! With much appreciation and truly valuable Discovery, what more can I say?

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Do not buy Jeeps, they are too expensive now and ugly, bulky monsters and I hated my 94 JGC, gave me all kinds of problems which haunted me for a long time. It was too noisy, even smaller things like gas guage failures pissed me off, not to menton service dealers had little consideration and were rude as well. I now own a 97 Discovery and have no problems, great truck, very spacious and most of all it’s fun to drive off-road, I mean serious ofroading, (not a gravel path in a country club). The four wheel drive is robust and capable of tackling all kinds of jobs and what I like best is the boxed steel frame. On our weekend trip to Vermont, we could feel the quiet green rolling hills and bucolic farmlands and I learnt a few braking techniques where maneuvering the Discovery through narrow tree lined paths, abrupt hills, muddy bogs, ditches and sand pits gave us the sensation of a sure ride. And the service and support I receive from my dealer are  second to none! With much appreciation and truly valuable Discovery, what more can I say?  

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Go with the Jeep by all means.  In 1996, Land Rover was still not concerned about quality control, in my not so humble opinion. (I am not really sure that they are now, when it comes right down to it.)  Further, from your brief description of the use to which you will put whatever you buy, the Jeep will certainly be more than up to the job. I’m looking to buy either a 96 Discovery SE or a 99 Jeep Classic.  We will be using the car to get to and from work during the week and off-roading in the mountains occasionally.  We’ve heard some negative things about the reliability of Discoverys.  Can anyone confirm or deny?  What about a comparison with the Jeep for reliability and safety? Thanks in advance. Stacey

– Grant Wilkinson Ottawa, Canada

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I’m looking to buy either a 96 Discovery SE or a 99 Jeep Classic.  We will be using the car to get to and from work during the week and off-roading in the mountains occasionally.  We’ve heard some negative things about the reliability of Discoverys.  Can anyone confirm or deny?  What about a comparison with the Jeep for reliability and safety? Thanks in advance. Stacey

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Question:

:  NHTSA site. (that’s with a .gov, not a .com, folks). :         I have been there (although not recently, admittedly).    And, as of 10:30PM CST I am not able to access the    NHTSA site. Since I can get to the site, perhaps you    can provide the text of the broken axles? : : Also look around at local mechanics, 4×4 clubs, etc, etc, etc. :         As a participant on the offroad and Toyota 4×4    mailing lists, not to mention this newsgroup, I am    still waiting to hear about a Toy 8" axle failure.    Now, I will grant you that you can grenade one of    these axles with a Chevy 350, but I am still waiting    to hear of one grenading behind the stock I-4 or V-6.                                                         Bruce —   "I like bad!"                               Bruce Burden    Austin, TX.         – Thuganlitha         The Power and the Prophet         Robert Don Hughes

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I wonder where our trade deficit comes from??  Nothing against toyota trucks and people that own them, but I’ll stick to a chevy,ford or dodge if it keeps my community employed. I never heard of this head gasket problem in domestic trucks?

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I wonder where our trade deficit comes from??  Nothing against toyota trucks and people that own them, but I’ll stick to a chevy,ford or dodge if it keeps my community employed. What about all of the "foreign" trucks built here in the good ole USofA???? Part of the trade deficit also comes from US auto manufacturers who refuse to adapt their products for foreign markets (unlike their foreign counterparts!). Example:  One reason US cars don’t sell as well in Japan is the US cars have the driver on the "wrong" side of the vehicle and refuse to change!  For another reason, if gas costs $3-5 gal (or more), why would you buy an larger american vehicle that gets worse mpg?  I never heard of this head gasket problem in domestic trucks? Headgaskets . . . maybe not as much . . . other problems  . . . much more!!!! Bob "THE Texas Pack Rat" ‘90 4Runner SR5 V6 with more mods than I can list here!!!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder where our trade deficit comes from??  Nothing against toyota trucks and people that own them, but I’ll stick to a chevy,ford or dodge if it keeps my community employed. What about all of the "foreign" trucks built here in the good ole USofA???? Part of the trade deficit also comes from US auto manufacturers who refuse to adapt their products for foreign markets (unlike their foreign counterparts!). Example:  One reason US cars don’t sell as well in Japan is the US cars have the driver on the "wrong" side of the vehicle and refuse to change!  For another reason, if gas costs $3-5 gal (or more), why would you buy an larger american vehicle that gets worse mpg? I never heard of this head gasket problem in domestic trucks? Headgaskets . . . maybe not as much . . . other problems  . . . much more!!!! Bob "THE Texas Pack Rat" ‘90 4Runner SR5 V6 with more mods than I can list here!!!

 Uh, quite wrong. Domestics are sold with stearing wheels on both sides of the vehicle. The reason nothing but japanese models sell well in japan is because of very well known unfair trading practices. If we were to duplicate their trading practices, you’d never see a japanese model on the domestic market again.

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:  Lars:  Generally, the rear axle on the 4Runner is known to be weaker than : the 35. (I’ve certainly seen my fair share of blown rear 4runner axles.) :         First it was the electric locker in the Taco/4Runner wasn’t    strong enough. Now it is the whole axle that isn’t strong enough.    Doccers, you keep spouting this, but you have never provided    any data to back it up. Lets see some, or give it a rest.         The way you cry about this, I would think you were paying for    all those "terrible" Toyotas… : : Toyota’s IFS does leave a LOT to be desired in terms of off-road worthiness :         Yeah, yeah. Sorta depends on what type of off-roading you do,    doesn’t it? : : and overall strength, and the rear suspension they tout in the 4Runner is : well known for it’s lack of strength, leaving the vehicle sagging. :         Hey, so you finally found a legitimate criticism. Just goes    to show that maybe you *can* hit the broad side of a barn with a    shotgun. Congratulations.                                                         Bruce —   "I like bad!"                               Bruce Burden    Austin, TX.         – Thuganlitha         The Power and the Prophet         Robert Don Hughes

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I have to admit that my friend owns a 94 Cherokee and his electrical system has shorted 4 times and he’s been through 7 stereo head units. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – //It’s hard to believe you can say "Jeep" and "reliable" in the same sentence with a straight face… \ No kidding.  Some people just like to deny the facts. The Cherokee and Grand Cherokee are the biggest piles of crap on the road.—–Muskie

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :  Lars:  Generally, the rear axle on the 4Runner is known to be weaker than : the 35. (I’ve certainly seen my fair share of blown rear 4runner axles.) :    First it was the electric locker in the Taco/4Runner wasn’t   strong enough. Now it is the whole axle that isn’t strong enough.   Doccers, you keep spouting this, but you have never provided   any data to back it up. Lets see some, or give it a rest.    The way you cry about this, I would think you were paying for   all those "terrible" Toyotas… : : Toyota’s IFS does leave a LOT to be desired in terms of off-road worthiness :    Yeah, yeah. Sorta depends on what type of off-roading you do,   doesn’t it? : : and overall strength, and the rear suspension they tout in the 4Runner is : well known for it’s lack of strength, leaving the vehicle sagging. :    Hey, so you finally found a legitimate criticism. Just goes   to show that maybe you *can* hit the broad side of a barn with a   shotgun. Congratulations.                                                    Bruce —  "I like bad!"                           Bruce Burden    Austin, TX.    - Thuganlitha    The Power and the Prophet    Robert Don Hughes

 NHTSA site. (that’s with a .gov, not a .com, folks). Also look around at local mechanics, 4×4 clubs, etc, etc, etc.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jim, << I’ve been looking at SUVs for a while and am now ready to buy. Want a used 4×4 with <50,000 miles. A majority of the people I have spoken to advise the 4runner above all others. Especially in terms of reliability, frequency/ease of repair, price of parts, and longevity (need 100k+ out of an auto) Are they really that great? Big $$$ – would I be just as happy with Explorer or Rodeo? Toyotas are known for their reliability.  The only problem with Toyota trucks is the V6 headgasket blowing.  The newest 4Runners have had this problem corrected.  I checked out just about everything available when I bought my 4Runner.  If you are interested in older model 4Runners, drop me a line.   I don’t think you can really go wrong with any Toyota vehicle! Bob "THE Texas Pack Rat" ‘90 4Runner SR5 V6 with more mods than I can list here!!!

 Sorry to upset you, but the head gasket problem continues on 1998 vehicles.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – .  However, the powertrain, brakes, and suspension on Grand Cherokees is far and away more durable than any 4Runner.   This is not an opinion.  This is a proven fact. What is the source for this fact? Just look on any rough trail and count the Toyotas with bent suspensions, broken components, and worn-out vehicles.  It’s mighty tough to wear out a Jeep… they’ll take about anything thrown at them…  without bent and broken components. I haven’t seen an unusually large number of Toyotas on the trails with damaged components.  Certainly no more than any other make.  Toyotas, especially, the Land Cruisers and leaf-sprung pickups & 4Runners, have very, very robust drivetrains.  In fact, I’d go as far as to say that their drivetrains are more robust than those supplied in Jeeps.  The main problem I’ve seen offroad in Toyotas is lots of blown Birfields. Other than that, they appear to be very durable (except for their bodies which were prone to rapid rust).  On the Jeep-side, consider these weaknesses: 1. The Dana 35 axle is not strong enough for hardcore offroading. 2. The front axle-disconnect (or lack of any disconnect in the   SelecTrac Cherokess & all TJs) limits the choice of front end   traction diffs. 3. The xfer case slip yoke constantly leaks and can prove to be   a problem if you ever mangle a driveshaft. 4. Early Chrysler Jeeps had the crappy Peugot tranny and 207 xfer   case. 5. Leaking clutch slave cylinders were a notable problem with many   pre ‘94 Jeeps. ….lars ….lars

 Lars:  Generally, the rear axle on the 4Runner is known to be weaker than the 35. (I’ve certainly seen my fair share of blown rear 4runner axles.) Now the Land-Cruiser’s axles are certainly beefy enough, no complaints there. Same with the Dana-44 option on the Jeep’s. Toyota’s IFS does leave a LOT to be desired in terms of off-road worthiness and overall strength, and the rear suspension they tout in the 4Runner is well known for it’s lack of strength, leaving the vehicle sagging.

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: Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees are just as reliable, much easier to : repair, parts are much less expensive and easier to find, and Jeeps are : known for their longevity.  The 4Runner parts are expensive and difficult to It’s hard to believe you can say "Jeep" and "reliable" in the same sentence with a straight face…

 I’ve got 197,000 on my Jeep, and I’d call it Reliable. Never had to replace a head gasket anyways.

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.  However, the powertrain, brakes, and suspension on Grand Cherokees is far and away more durable than any 4Runner.   This is not an opinion.  This is a proven fact. What is the source for this fact? Just look on any rough trail and count the Toyotas with bent suspensions, broken components, and worn-out vehicles.  It’s mighty tough to wear out a Jeep… they’ll take about anything thrown at them…  without bent and broken components.

I haven’t seen an unusually large number of Toyotas on the trails with damaged components.  Certainly no more than any other make.  Toyotas, especially, the Land Cruisers and leaf-sprung pickups & 4Runners, have very, very robust drivetrains.  In fact, I’d go as far as to say that their drivetrains are more robust than those supplied in Jeeps.  The main problem I’ve seen offroad in Toyotas is lots of blown Birfields. Other than that, they appear to be very durable (except for their bodies which were prone to rapid rust).  On the Jeep-side, consider these weaknesses: 1. The Dana 35 axle is not strong enough for hardcore offroading. 2. The front axle-disconnect (or lack of any disconnect in the    SelecTrac Cherokess & all TJs) limits the choice of front end    traction diffs. 3. The xfer case slip yoke constantly leaks and can prove to be    a problem if you ever mangle a driveshaft. 4. Early Chrysler Jeeps had the crappy Peugot tranny and 207 xfer    case. 5. Leaking clutch slave cylinders were a notable problem with many    pre ‘94 Jeeps. …lars …lars

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Every company has good and bad motors and good and bad cars. Case in point: v6 toyota head gasket.  Hey everyone makes mistakes, sheesh

Yeah, and Muskie’s parents made one serious mistake.  He shoulda pulled out!! Jim S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jeff

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.  However, the powertrain, brakes, and suspension on Grand Cherokees is far and away more durable than any 4Runner.   This is not an opinion.  This is a proven fact. What is the source for this fact?

Just look on any rough trail and count the Toyotas with bent suspensions, broken components, and worn-out vehicles.  It’s mighty tough to wear out a Jeep… they’ll take about anything thrown at them…  without bent and broken components. Jim S.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jim, << I’ve been looking at SUVs for a while and am now ready to buy. Want a used 4×4 with <50,000 miles. A majority of the people I have spoken to advise the 4runner above all others. Especially in terms of reliability, frequency/ease of repair, price of parts, and longevity (need 100k+ out of an auto) Are they really that great? Big $$$ – would I be just as happy with Explorer or Rodeo? Toyotas are known for their reliability.  The only problem with Toyota trucks is the V6 headgasket blowing.  The newest 4Runners have had this problem corrected.  I checked out just about everything available when I bought my 4Runner.  If you are interested in older model 4Runners, drop me a line.   I don’t think you can really go wrong with any Toyota vehicle! Bob "THE Texas Pack Rat" ‘90 4Runner SR5 V6 with more mods than I can list here!!!

How does blown head gasket == reliability?  Blown head gaskets can lead to complete loss of the engine.  A more accurate statement would be "Toyota trucks are known for blown head gaskets until recently but since its Japanese we’ll pretend its reliable." http://www.ford-trucks.com     –  Ford Truck Enthusiasts All years and models of Ford trucks discussed on our 4 mailing lists. -Ken, Admin       1967 Ford F100, 390FE V8 Check out the free Ford Truck Enthusiasts Web Site/Email Lists. Questions, answers, chat and Ford speak. 1600+ members and growing. All years of F-series, E-series, Rangers, Broncos, Bronco IIs, Rancheros, Explorers, Expeditions, Econolines and pre-F series are all covered. that!

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Well, Muskie, you seem rather intimidated by them, though, don’t you? Why don’t you go blow a head gasket? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – //It’s hard to believe you can say "Jeep" and "reliable" in the same sentence with a straight face… \ No kidding.  Some people just like to deny the facts. The Cherokee and Grand Cherokee are the biggest piles of crap on the road.—–Muskie

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It’s amazing how clueless people like you can be.  My experience with Jeeps has been several hundred thousand miles with ZERO incidences of poor reliability.  As I stated, the fit and finish is not impeccable, and some interior parts could have been designed more ergonomically.  However, the powertrain, brakes, and suspension on Grand Cherokees is far and away more durable than any 4Runner.   This is not an opinion.  This is a proven fact.

 What is the source for this fact?  These numbers can be pulled from  the Edmund’s web pages:  Reliability Ratings  (scale of 1-10)         JGC     4Rnr    Xplorer Pthfndr (Thrown in for comparison)  1993   7.2     8.7     6.9     8.6  1994   7.9     8.3     7.5     8.2  1995   8.1     9.3     6.9     9.3  1996   8.1     9.0     8.6     7.8  1997 & 1998 ratings unavailable  True, the Toy does not rate so well on some of the other categories  and any owner of a pre-96, myself included, will admit that it lacks  in the accelleration dept.  But based on reliability, I’d buy another.  IMO it comes down to this:  SUVs cost $30K these days.  This is a  lot of money to "bet" on an unknown.  If your history with Jeeps is  a happy one, cool, I’d buy another too.  I feel the same about Toys.    But, any manufacturer has a lot of convincing to do to get me to  put down $30K on the chance and a promise that their truck might be  better.  I haven’t seen anybody advertising any money back garantees.  Verne

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I just bought my 5th toyota vehicle, an ‘87 4Runner.  It’s got 220k miles on it and runs like new.  I feel when I get to 250k miles or so I’ll replace the engine, but I said that about my 1st two toyotas, and they went over 300k each before I sold them (still running).  I have the 4cyl version, not the V6 so the head gasket problem doesn’t effect me, Long live the 22R Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been looking at SUVs for a while and am now ready to buy. Want a used 4×4 with <50,000 miles. A majority of the people I have spoken to advise the 4runner above all others. Especially in terms of reliability, frequency/ease of repair, price of parts, and longevity (need 100k+ out of an auto) Are they really that great? Big $$$ – would I be just as happy with Explorer or Rodeo? Thanks -Jim

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Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees are just as reliable, much easier to repair, parts are much less expensive and easier to find, and Jeeps are known for their longevity.  The 4Runner parts are expensive and difficult to find, and repairs are notably expensive.  You also will find Toyota service staff to be extremely uncooperative, a finding supported by Consumer Reports (Toyotas are reliable, but if you do need service, they are horrible!!)  The Cherokee and Grand Cherokee get a bad rap for build quality, and what this amounts to is some cheap plastic in the interior that squeaks some.  The basic body and drivetrain are more reliable than any SUV I know of.  Any Jeep owners with the 4.0 liter 6 cyl expect to exceed 200,000 miles without a major repair (I hear of water pumps at around 160,000 though. (Except a Jeep water pump can be had for under $50 compared to a Toyota pump easily above $250). Jim S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been looking at SUVs for a while and am now ready to buy. Want a used 4×4 with <50,000 miles. A majority of the people I have spoken to advise the 4runner above all others. Especially in terms of reliability, frequency/ease of repair, price of parts, and longevity (need 100k+ out of an auto) Are they really that great? Big $$$ – would I be just as happy with Explorer or Rodeo? Thanks -Jim

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//It’s hard to believe you can say "Jeep" and "reliable" in the same  sentence with a straight face… \ No kidding.  Some people just like to deny the facts. The Cherokee and  Grand Cherokee are the biggest piles of crap on the road.—–Muskie

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: Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees are just as reliable, much easier to : repair, parts are much less expensive and easier to find, and Jeeps are : known for their longevity.  The 4Runner parts are expensive and difficult to It’s hard to believe you can say "Jeep" and "reliable" in the same sentence with a straight face…

It’s hard to realize that people don’t realize *yet* that Jeeps are indeed very reliable.  It gets rated above average in all surveys in reliability, even Consumer Reports that *hates* the Jeep rates it as "Above Average" in reliability.  You think we’d take an unreliable vehicle out into the boondocks?  Hardly!  Catch up with the times, Jim, old stererotypical myths aren’t becoming from you.  I think you’ve been reading Muskie’s comments too long. Jerry — Jerry Bransford To send me email, remove "junkmail" from my email address. PP-ASEL, C.A.P., KC6TAY The Zen hotdog… make me one with everything!

Response:

Jerry, That was William Rowell who is clueless.  He was responding to my comments supporting Jeep’s reliability when he made the crack about keeping a straight face. Jim S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees are just as reliable, much easier to : repair, parts are much less expensive and easier to find, and Jeeps are : known for their longevity.  The 4Runner parts are expensive and difficult to It’s hard to believe you can say "Jeep" and "reliable" in the same sentence with a straight face… It’s hard to realize that people don’t realize *yet* that Jeeps are indeed very reliable.  It gets rated above average in all surveys in reliability, even Consumer Reports that *hates* the Jeep rates it as "Above Average" in reliability.  You think we’d take an unreliable vehicle out into the boondocks?  Hardly!  Catch up with the times, Jim, old stererotypical myths aren’t becoming from you.  I think you’ve been reading Muskie’s comments too long. Jerry — Jerry Bransford To send me email, remove "junkmail" from my email address. PP-ASEL, C.A.P., KC6TAY The Zen hotdog… make me one with everything!

Response:

It’s amazing how clueless people like you can be.  My experience with Jeeps has been several hundred thousand miles with ZERO incidences of poor reliability.  As I stated, the fit and finish is not impeccable, and some interior parts could have been designed more ergonomically.  However, the powertrain, brakes, and suspension on Grand Cherokees is far and away more durable than any 4Runner.   This is not an opinion.  This is a proven fact. Just how can you fault Jeep for its reliability when Toyota is building engines prone to blow head gaskets??  I have yet to even hear of a Jeep I-6 or V8 blowing a head gasket!!! Jim S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees are just as reliable, much easier to : repair, parts are much less expensive and easier to find, and Jeeps are : known for their longevity.  The 4Runner parts are expensive and difficult to It’s hard to believe you can say "Jeep" and "reliable" in the same sentence with a straight face…

Response:

I’ve been looking at SUVs for a while and am now ready to buy. Want a used 4×4 with <50,000 miles. A majority of the people I have spoken to advise the 4runner above all others. Especially in terms of reliability, frequency/ease of repair, price of parts, and longevity (need 100k+ out of an auto) Are they really that great? Big $$$ – would I be just as happy with Explorer or Rodeo? Thanks -Jim

Response:

I’ve been looking at SUVs for a while and am now ready to buy. Want a used 4×4 with <50,000 miles. A majority of the people I have spoken to advise the 4runner above all others. Especially in terms of reliability, frequency/ease of repair, price of parts, and longevity (need 100k+ out of an auto) Are they really that great? Big $$$ – would I be just as happy with Explorer or Rodeo?

What are your needs for a 4×4 Jim?  If you think you’ll be needing 4×4 for street use, as in bad weather, snow, ice, mud, etc., the 4Runner’s 4×4 system is only a part-time 4×4 system that is NOT suitable for paved street use, it’s only an off-road system.  For occasional paved street use, you need to go with a vehicle that has some kind of a full-time 4×4 system like the Explorer, Jeep Cherokee or Grand Cherokee, etc. all have.  If you want something with both full-time and part-time, Jeep’s Selec-Trac has that ability. Jerry Jerry — Jerry Bransford To send me email, remove "junkmail" from my email address. PP-ASEL, C.A.P., KC6TAY The Zen hotdog… make me one with everything!

Response:

Jim, << I’ve been looking at SUVs for a while and am now ready to buy. Want a used 4×4 with <50,000 miles. A majority of the people I have spoken to advise the 4runner above all others. Especially in terms of reliability, frequency/ease of repair, price of parts, and longevity (need 100k+ out of an auto) Are they really that great? Big $$$ – would I be just as happy with Explorer or Rodeo? Toyotas are known for their reliability.  The only problem with Toyota trucks is the V6 headgasket blowing.  The newest 4Runners have had this problem corrected.  I checked out just about everything available when I bought my 4Runner.  If you are interested in older model 4Runners, drop me a line.   I don’t think you can really go wrong with any Toyota vehicle! Bob "THE Texas Pack Rat" ‘90 4Runner SR5 V6 with more mods than I can list here!!!

Response:

Question:

Muskie: Geez, Muskie, the last I heard of you, you were hanging around the transvestite board trying to get one of them interested in taking a ride in your Toyota ice cream "truck"..  Why not go back there and continue buggering…..er, bugging the "girls".  I saw a message from you indicating you wanted to try on a few "silky soft things" and cruise around the Naperville/Wheaton area trolling for guys.  That might work, as a matter of fact.  A lot of those yuppy, TV perverts like those Japanese vehicles.  I gotta admit they are kind of cute, but the taste of most of us here runs a little differently. Most of the folks here probably know you are a little feminine twerp who just gets bored with crossdressing during the long winter nights.  Why not try one of those Chicago clubs for your type of entertainment instead of buggering …er, (darn) bugging us clean cut folks with your drivel. By the way, it’s spelled "AMERICAN"!  Bet you know how to spell Japan, don’t you? H. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s  are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist  size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks, and have a sort of "support" for love handles built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands. Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident.  any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

Response:

Paul, you must have missed any or all of "Muskies" posts, they’er nothing but "bait" and best not even acknowledged… I did miss them.  Darn. Setting appropriate filters now… and thanks for the heads-up. Paul

Hey, and be sure to look at the selection of groups this was cross-posted to. Aardwolf.

Response:

Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands.

 Actually, son, they’re made that way so that the driver may keep their eyes on the road while playing with all those neat controls.  I may also ad, with risk of being flamed… Japanese vehicles have smaller controls because Japanese people have a natural ability to see all those little controls better… they’re already squinting. Bronco II Website: (New URL) http://members.aol.com/luvstrux/main.html Green Bay Packers (9W-3L) Finally pounded the Cowboys. UW Badger FB (8W-4L)  Bowl bound. UW Badger Hoops (1W-2L) My expectations may have been way too high.

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I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist size of 37 inches or larger. Muskie, I just gotta know.  Where *do* you come up with this stuff? — P.J. Hartman            hartman{at}tconl{dot}com Corvette, Talon, MGB, ZX-11, GS450LX, and Sonata           http://www.tconl.com/~hartman

He thinks it up while sitting in detention at the Heywood Jablome Middle School – East Camden, New Jersey.

Response:

Well, we could get into debates about national averages and how one country’s "average" person may tend to be larger.  I’m sure that vehicle manufacturers pay attention to this and make their vehicles accordingly.         mm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find that Geos and japaneese small-cars seem to be made for skinney, annorexic people with short legs and arms.  With the seat all of the way back, any obese, love-handled person just cannot operate the vehicle! But when the small, ity-bity salesperson got in, he slid right in and stayed there! this IS about the stupidest post i’ve seen. — Andy Quaas

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s  are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist  size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks, and have a sort of "support" for love handles built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands. Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident.  any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

Those of you who aren’t regulars may not know this, but: This is a troll.  This is only a troll.  Do not fall for this, it is only a troll. If this had been a real internet emergency (or a serious post), the system adminisrator would have posted instructions on how to deal with the situation in a calm orderly manner (or not).   OTOH, this is the best post I have seen from Muskie, there may well be more than a grain of truth to it. <g Aardwolf.

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any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie Yes.  I think that is perhaps the stupidest, most ignorant post I have ever seen on Usenet.  Congratulations! Paul

No way, this is his best one!  You haven’t seen some of his others, like the guy in the old rattletrap pickup who’s faded interior matched the green color of his teeth… Aardwolf.

Response:

I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist size of 37 inches or larger.

<<snipped any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

This guy is trolling for responses.  Very close to SPAM, IMHO. Don’t bother feeding his barrel-stirring ego.  Ignore the problem and it will eventually go away. dr bob

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Yes.  I think that is perhaps the stupidest, most ignorant post I have ever seen on Usenet.  Congratulations!

        Nah, not even close. Quit stroking his need for    recognition. It is simply a typical Muskie posting – purile,    as usual. Pointless, as usual. Designed to provoke a    response, as usual. Yep, all around typical muskie    drivel.         For good stupid, ignorant posts, you need to drop    in to talk.origins. For insane ramblings (touched by    genius?) visit the rec.autos.[tech, misc, driving] and    look for stuff from Altavoz.                                                         Bruce — "I like bad!"         -Thuganlitha         The Power and the Prophet

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Muskie’s parents must have been related! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s  are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist  size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks, and have a sort of "support" for love handles built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands. Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident.  any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

–

Response:

Paul, you must have missed any or all of "Muskies" posts, they’er nothing but "bait" and best not even acknowledged…

I did miss them.  Darn. Setting appropriate filters now… and thanks for the heads-up. Paul —– Paul McAleer For email reply: change "anonymous" to "hijinx" – thanks!

Response:

I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s are very large… A person who is in shape slips around in the seat… Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands…[and so on and so forth]

Nice spam-bait, Muskie!  Isn’t 7th grade study hall over now?  I think the remedial math teacher is calling you! Drew

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They’re designed for hard-working Americans.  You see, it’s kinda hard to punch little buttons when wearing work gloves. -s — "Which dumbass plugged the TV into this typewriter ?"                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         – Butthead

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I find that Geos and japaneese small-cars seem to be made for skinney, annorexic people with short legs and arms.  With the seat all of the way back, any obese, love-handled person just cannot operate the vehicle! But when the small, ity-bity salesperson got in, he slid right in and stayed there! this IS about the stupidest post i’ve seen. — Andy Quaas

Response:

Paul, you must have missed any or all of "Muskies" posts, they’er nothing but "bait" and best not even acknowledged… any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie Yes.  I think that is perhaps the stupidest, most ignorant post I have ever seen on Usenet.  Congratulations! Paul

– -!! You Have Strayed Upon The Motorway To HELL !!-

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Yes, American’s are pigs relatively.  Not knocking em, I’m one too, but geez we eat too much. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks, and have a sort of "support" for love handles built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands. Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident. any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

Response:

A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.

wow, muskie looked at an american product? thats odd Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands.

Yeah, they are called gloves Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident.

 American cars have this strange thing called a "Tilt Steering Column" sometimes, it moves the wheel closer if you use it or farther away too A Well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED    -Mindwarped WWW.NRA.ORG

Response:

I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist size of 37 inches or larger.

Muskie, I just gotta know.  Where *do* you come up with this stuff? — P.J. Hartman            hartman{at}tconl{dot}com Corvette, Talon, MGB, ZX-11, GS450LX, and Sonata           http://www.tconl.com/~hartman

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s  are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist  size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks, and have a sort of "support" for love handles built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands. Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident.  any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

Hello Muskie,         You know I have to agree with you 100%.  By the way I think that the same can be said for most "comfortable" furniture out there.  I recently found myself in a furniture store looking at what I thought was a small couch, turned out it was a chair.  The three cushion couch that went with the CHAIR could have fit 8 regular size people or three regular (that is to say fat) Americans.  Enjoy your Thanksgiving Turkey America. David

Response:

 I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s  are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist  size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks,

huhuhuhuhuh, you said buttocks  and have a sort of "support" for love handles – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands.

Response:

 I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s  are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist  size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks, and have a sort of "support" for love handles built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands. Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident.  any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

Response:

any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

Yes.  I think that is perhaps the stupidest, most ignorant post I have ever seen on Usenet.  Congratulations! Paul

Response:

Heeeyyy!  Muskie’s back.  The most entertaining posts ever!   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s  are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist  size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks, and have a sort of "support" for love handles built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands. Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident.  any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

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Ah Muskie, you know the world is made of all kinds. Myself, being one of the larger portly porkers on the planet, have to say that NO american made car/truck is suitable for me without additional modifications. Having said that, I would still rather be fat in body than fat in the head… and I thought my brain cells were dying off fast! By the way, I trimmed your newsgroup list. See I DO THINK THIN sometimes! ooOo I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist size of 37 inches or larger.

Tucson, Arizona USA The Dead Suburban’s Home Page http://www.azstarnet.com/~zil/suburb/

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It seems like Muskie has some problems with more than the size of the vehicle… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the seats in mid-to large American Suv’s are very large, and would only be comfortable if you had a waist size of 37 inches or larger. A person who is in shape slips around in the seat, while the obese dealer who showed me the vehicle slid right into the seat and stayed there.  It seams the seats support very large buttocks, and have a sort of "support" for love handles built into the side of the seat. Also, I noticed the interior controls on the American SUV’s are large and fisher-price-like.  They seem to be made for chubby or chunky fingers and hands. Also, the steering wheel is very far from the driver when seat is up all the way. I question wether this is designed for obese people with very large bellies, so the fat of their bellies doesn’t rub against the steering wheel and cause an accident. any opinions?  Thanks, ——-Muskie

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Question:

I just purchased a Ford Explorer with a manual transmission.  Does the milage run up while towing flat and if so is there a legal way to disable it while towing.  Also, any recommendations re: particular tow bars or other helpful hints for towing this vehicle would be appreciated. Thanks. — Stephen Chase

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I just purchased a Ford Explorer with a manual transmission.  Does the milage run up while towing flat and if so is there a legal way to disable it while towing.  Also, any recommendations re: particular tow bars or other helpful hints for towing this vehicle would be appreciated. Thanks. — Stephen Chase

Not sure if you milage adds up while towing, but it is easy to check.  Find a hill, place the transmission in netural and the key in ACC and coast down the hill.  If the speedometer works you will be adding up miles while you are towing.  REMCO makes a speedometer disconnect that electrically disconects the speedometer cable when you hook it up to the motorhome.  Check your state laws on this device though, it is illegal in some states, here in Oregon for one. — Ernest Smith

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Question:

Rad My wife and I had an argument about whether mice liked cheese or peanut      butter best.

They don’t like cheese. Try a mixture of oatmeal and marmite (vegemite, yeast extract). It works great in the greenhouses here.

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I dunno bout cars – but when I empty the hav-a-heart traps, if the mouse is still "frisky" (ie has not been in the trap all night), they can jump a good 3 feet or more. I learned this the hard way when I plopped them into a garbage can sans lid. I learned to use the lid. Perhaps a small mesh cap over the tail pipe can help (during storage) or use of a super trap muffler EWong – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – P. Fishback) writes: I am reluctant to post this message as it is sure to elicit abuse and feeble attempts at humor, but the story is real. Had a similar problem with an XJ-12 Jaguar.  Mice crawled into the tailpipe and made their nests in the muffler.  Completely clogged the muffler. Car didn’t run worth shit.   No.  This is serious stuff.  How do mice get from the ground to an access point?  How do we stop it? VeeDot — "Words form the thread on which we string our experiences."                                            - Aldous Huxley                    

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I dunno bout cars – but when I empty the hav-a-heart traps, if the mouse is still "frisky" (ie has not been in the trap all night), they can jump a good 3 feet or more. I learned this the hard way when I plopped them into a garbage can sans lid. I learned to use the lid.

Uh.. lemmie get this right:  First you catch the mouse in a hav-a-heart trap and then you toss it in the garbage while its still alive?  Why bother with the "humane" method of capture if you’re going to let it starve to death in your trash can and/or suffocate in a garbage truck?  I think you are missing the point — maybe you better stick to the old spring traps for now. -tom-

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Rad My wife and I had an argument about whether mice liked cheese or peanut       butter best. I baited two traps with each type of food and guess who       won?????? We caught TWO mice at the same time!!!! Go figure…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno bout cars – but when I empty the hav-a-heart traps, if the mouse is still "frisky" (ie has not been in the trap all night), they can jump a good 3 feet or more. I learned this the hard way when I plopped them into a garbage can sans lid. I learned to use the lid. Uh.. lemmie get this right:  First you catch the mouse in a hav-a-heart trap and then you toss it in the garbage while its still alive?  Why bother with the "humane" method of capture if you’re going to let it starve to death in your trash can and/or suffocate in a garbage truck?  I think you are missing the point — maybe you better stick to the old spring traps for now. -tom-

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I am reluctant to post this message as it is sure to elicit abuse and feeble attempts at humor, but the story is real.

Had a similar problem with an XJ-12 Jaguar.  Mice crawled into the tailpipe and made their nests in the muffler.  Completely clogged the muffler.  Car didn’t run worth shit.  

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P. Fishback) writes: I am reluctant to post this message as it is sure to elicit abuse and feeble attempts at humor, but the story is real. Had a similar problem with an XJ-12 Jaguar.  Mice crawled into the tailpipe and made their nests in the muffler.  Completely clogged the muffler. Car didn’t run worth shit.  

No.  This is serious stuff.  How do mice get from the ground to an access point?  How do we stop it? VeeDot — "Words form the thread on which we string our experiences."                                             – Aldous Huxley                    

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Believe it or not, I had the same problem with mice nesting in the air filter housing of my Yamaha motorcycle. Here’s what worked for me. Spray the affected area with lots of Formula 409 but don’t wipe it off. The smell dissapates fairly quickly and leaves behind a film that the mice find rather distasteful. We also use this trick for our snowmobiles, (very common problem when storing over the summer).

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am reluctant to post this message as it is sure to elicit abuse and feeble attempts at humor, but the story is real. About a month ago, my wife complained that the heater in our 95 Explorer wasn’t working as well as it did when it was new.  When I opened the hood and found fragments of hickory nuts and mouse droppings on the heater fan assembly on the firewall, I feared the worst.  I opened the heater box and found a huge mass of mouse nesting material, much of it entangled in the squirrel cage fan.  I cleaned it out and set a mouse trap inside the engine compartment.  The next morning, I removed a dead mouse from the trap.  Since that time, I have caught 4 more mice in traps set inside the engine compartment.  They always seem to zero in on the heater assembly.  They seem to have an appetite for the black fabric-covered foil that insulates the heater assembly and have chewed several holes in it.  We drive the Explorer to work daily; it stays outside at night.  I can’t figure out why they keep attacking it.  I have an older Ford pickup that sits in the yard for a week at a time without being started.  The mice haven’t bothered it. Here’s the reason for my post.  A friend in North Carolina has a 94 Explorer.  He had the identical problem with mice infesting his heater. He took it to a dealer and paid several hundred dollars to get the mess removed. The number of times that mice have returned to my vehicle’s heater and the occurrence of the same problem in a friend’s vehicle seem to strain coincidence.  Has anyone else had this problem? Ed Mahaffey Univ of Georgia/College of Vet Med (706) 542-5847My wife complained that the gas mileage had decreased on her car. So I

bought air filters for both cars and proceeded to change them. When I removed the filter lid, on my wife’s car, and lifted the air filter out there was a great big mouse nest filling the entire air space below the filter. The mileage has improved now. Randy

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I think there can only be one simple answer:   Your Ford explorer is made out of cheese —  | / | Hewlett Packard Co.   Phone: 719-590-2133        | |  | / | Colorado Springs, CO.                            | |  | / |                                                  | |  |___|      I love animals. They taste delicious.       |___|

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I’ve heard of this happening before to other cars/trucks. Apparently the little buggers get in through the ventilation air intake and make their home. On some cars this can be defeated by keeping the heater/A.C. in "recirc" mode thereby closing the vent to outside air. Unfortunately some recirc vents are vacuum operated and open when the engine is shut off. You might also be able to find the air intake to the heater and put a screen over it. Lastly you could always keep a cat in the car — Bob Watson —

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I think there can only be one simple answer:   Your Ford explorer is made out of cheese No, Ford was too cheap to buy hamsters, and the rubber bands they used to

use kept breaking. — Curtis Mid Ohio Land Cruisers & TLCA #3304 "It’s big, it’s heavy, it’s wood….."

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I’ve heard of this happening before to other cars/trucks. Apparently the little buggers get in through the ventilation air intake and make their home. On some cars this can be defeated by keeping the heater/A.C. in "recirc" mode thereby closing the vent to outside air. Unfortunately some recirc vents are vacuum operated and open when the engine is shut off. You might also be able to find the air intake to the heater and put a screen over it. Lastly you could always keep a cat in the car — Bob Watson

Yeah, but then what do you do about the shredded seats (don’t say put in a dog)

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having written: Has anyone else had this problem?  

Try emptying a tomcat over the sound-deadening mat under the bonnet (hood) lid.

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I am reluctant to post this message as it is sure to elicit abuse and feeble attempts at humor, but the story is real. About a month ago, my wife complained that the heater in our 95 Explorer wasn’t working as well as it did when it was new.  When I opened the hood and found fragments of hickory nuts and mouse droppings on the heater fan assembly on the firewall, I feared the worst.  I opened the heater box and found a huge mass of mouse nesting material, much of it entangled in the squirrel cage fan.  I cleaned it out and set a mouse trap inside the engine compartment.  The next morning, I removed a dead mouse from the trap.  Since that time, I have caught 4 more mice in traps set inside the engine compartment.  They always seem to zero in on the heater assembly.  They seem to have an appetite for the black fabric-covered foil that insulates the heater assembly and have chewed several holes in it.  We drive the Explorer to work daily; it stays outside at night.  I can’t figure out why they keep attacking it.  I have an older Ford pickup that sits in the yard for a week at a time without being started.  The mice haven’t bothered it. Here’s the reason for my post.  A friend in North Carolina has a 94 Explorer.  He had the identical problem with mice infesting his heater.   He took it to a dealer and paid several hundred dollars to get the mess removed.   The number of times that mice have returned to my vehicle’s heater and the occurrence of the same problem in a friend’s vehicle seem to strain   coincidence.  Has anyone else had this problem?   Ed Mahaffey Univ of Georgia/College of Vet Med (706) 542-5847

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